Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DeanM · 06-07-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Ok, let me put it this way.
We have overwhelming evidence for relativity but none for Jesus.
Of course we will never have 100% proof and I am not looking for one, but there is a huge difference scientific evidence based on facts and superstitious myths.

No evidence of Jesus? Ok, sure. Really. But aside from that, you are missing my point that you can Not believe in Jesus, and I can, and yet we can still both be right...

DeanM · 06-07-2007, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I, too, will, yet again, inflict on all and sundry reference to a work which, I believe, does resolve all this: Constantin Brunner's Our Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk). Self-identification with the ultimate is the defining characteristic of mysticism, and Brunner argues that Christ is a mystic, the greatest of mystics.

Sounds like this author makes a point that Jesus does exist, but may not be God. Sounds to me like he's right.
But Jesus, to me, is God. And I'm right.

We can both be right...

Toto · 06-07-2007, 09:55 PM

Can you both be wrong?

Can you both be right if you agree that the question is not meaningful or logical to start out with?

I think this is more of a general religious question, that Biblical Criticism can do little to illucidate.

Chili · 06-07-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I, too, will, yet again, inflict on all and sundry reference to a work which, I believe, does resolve all this: Constantin Brunner's Our Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk). Self-identification with the ultimate is the defining characteristic of mysticism, and Brunner argues that Christ is a mystic, the greatest of mystics.

Never a mystic who is an enriched believer but still can have a wrong opinion. Christ was a gnostic, for sure, but not to be confused with Gnosticism wherin the -ism identifies a yearning towards knowledge.

Chili · 06-07-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I, too, will, yet again, inflict on all and sundry reference to a work which, I believe, does resolve all this: Constantin Brunner's Our Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk). Self-identification with the ultimate is the defining characteristic of mysticism, and Brunner argues that Christ is a mystic, the greatest of mystics.

Sounds like this author makes a point that Jesus does exist, but may not be God. Sounds to me like he's right.
But Jesus, to me, is God. And I'm right.

We can both be right...

Jesus had a dual nature: one wherein he was God and one wherein he was human and it was to this human nature that the needed to die to set his Christ-in-the-image-of-God nature free.

IonMic · 06-08-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanM

Or...We could try to understand that there may be a flexibility in the issue. Lets say Person X believes Jesus to be God, and Person Y believes that Jesus is Not God. Seeing a condition stated this way would leave most to believe that one of them is wrong.
Consider the watches worn by astronauts. On long missions, their time pieces show a different time (albeit slightly) then the clocks on Earth. The explanation for this lies in Einstein's theory of relativity, which has only recently been available to mankind.
Which time piece is incorrect? Answer: Neither is incorrect. But for the understanding of relativity, a debate would ensue.
What of the belief system of Jesus being God? It is only debated because mankind has yet to stumble onto a rational theory to explain that both can be correct. And perhaps this theory is not too different from relativity...
And when that day happens, all this discussion becomes moot bickering.
Want a really good tool to help see through the muck of modern philosophy and emerge with the ability to see things with ultimate clarity? Read "Lunch With God" by Steve Hershey http://www.lulu.com/content/906990

After you read That, a lot of things will fall into place for you that seemed impossible before...

Jesus is not God. But jesus is god.

God and Jesus are separate physical entities but both in their own right are gods.

DeanM · 06-08-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Jesus is not God. But jesus is god.

God and Jesus are separate physical entities but both in their own right are gods.

You've chosen an interesting way to use capitalization. Regardless, I think you may be right...

Tom Sawyer · 06-08-2007, 07:26 AM

Jesus and God are both imaginary entities. This means that they can be whatever they want in whatever way they want because there is no need for them to conform to any kind of reality in any way, shape or form.

Any definition that anyone ever comes up with for them is exactly as valid as any other definition because none of those definitions ever have to conform to something that actually exists.

So yes, Jesus can be God and Not-God at once. It is irrelevant how sensible or nonsensical this statement is.

DeanM · 06-08-2007, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

So yes, Jesus can be God and Not-God at once. It is irrelevant how sensible or nonsensical this statement is.

Actually, it is quite relavant. It means that all the arguing that you make about the existence or non-existence of God or Jesus could be time better spent wondering why both scenarios could be true, based on the observer.

If both views are correct, then the real debate should be why you specifically choose to look at the answer from your particular viewpoint, and not the other.

Me? I see both. I choose to believe Jesus is God, and for me, it becomes truth.

Dare I say...Try it for yourself and see if I am wrong?

No Robots · 06-08-2007, 08:24 AM

Why must people be always making men divine and gods human? O these deafening and deadening words!--Brunner, Our Christ, p.9.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-07-2007, 09:55 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Can you both be wrong? Can you both be right if you agree that the question is not meaningful or logical to start out with? I think this is more of a general religious question, that Biblical Criticism can do little to illucidate.

06-08-2007, 07:26 AM	#18
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Jesus and God are both imaginary entities. This means that they can be whatever they want in whatever way they want because there is no need for them to conform to any kind of reality in any way, shape or form. Any definition that anyone ever comes up with for them is exactly as valid as any other definition because none of those definitions ever have to conform to something that actually exists. So yes, Jesus can be God and Not-God at once. It is irrelevant how sensible or nonsensical this statement is.

06-08-2007, 08:24 AM	#20
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Why must people be always making men divine and gods human? O these deafening and deadening words!--Brunner, Our Christ, p.9.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.