Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 03-23-2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOnomaMoi

.... So we have to reject these as evidence, and we cannot make inferences or interpretations. At least, that's the approach you use when it comes to the NT or other christian texts. All of a sudden, however, when we're concerned with the historical existence of someone else, the rules change.

Your post is just a load of BS. You have NO clue how to make logical deductions.

Bernard Muller · 03-23-2012, 11:56 AM

to aa,

Quote:

when Josephus was IN ROME as a Captured Prisoner

(emphasis mine)
WRONG, check your sources.

Bernard Muller · 03-23-2012, 11:58 AM

to all,

Quote:

Josephus and Philo were very much connected to the Roman establishment, there is no evidence they had Roman citizenship

My mistake. Josephus did get Roman citizenship when in Rome after 70 (ref: his Life)

tanya · 03-24-2012, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

to aa,

Quote:

when Josephus was IN ROME as a Captured Prisoner

(emphasis mine)

WRONG, check your sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide: they drew lots and killed each other, one by one, counting to every third person. The sole survivor of this process was Josephus (this method as a mathematical problem is referred to as the Josephus problem, or Roman Roulette[12]), who surrendered to the Roman forces and became a prisoner. In 69 Josephus was released.[13] According to his account, he acted as a negotiator with the defenders during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70, in which his parents and first wife died.
It was while being confined at Yodfat that Josephus claimed to have experienced a divine revelation, that later led to his speech predicting Vespasian would become emperor. After the prediction became true he was released by Vespasian who considered his gift of prophecy to be divine. Josephus wrote that his revelation had taught him three things: that God, the creator of the Jewish people, had decided to "punish" them, that "fortune" had been given to the Romans, and that God had chosen him "to announce the things that are to come". [14][15][16]
In 71, he went to Rome in the entourage of Titus, becoming a Roman citizen and client of the ruling Flavian dynasty (hence he is often referred to as Flavius Josephus — see below). In addition to Roman citizenship, he was granted accommodation in conquered Judaea, and a decent, if not extravagant, pension. While in Rome and under Flavian patronage, Josephus wrote all of his known works. Although he uses "Josephus", he appears to have taken the Roman praenomen Titus and nomen Flavius from his patrons.[17] This was standard practice for "new" Roman citizens.

Bernard, I believe you are mistaken here.

Let's review:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

Not necessarily from Roman records. They could have been Jewish. Do you think Josephus got his succession of high priests from Roman records? More likely from Jewish ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

How illogical can you be!!! Josephus more likely got his succession of High Priests from Jewish records but got ALL his information about a ROMAN governor from Jewish sources when Josephus was IN ROME as a Captured Prisoner and WROTE "Antiquities of the Jews" AFTER the Jewish War c 93 CE and LIVED outside Palestine.

Please tell what records did Josephus have in possession when he was Captured???

It MUST be LOGICAL and completely reasonable that the ROMANS had documented records of ROMAN GOVERNORS just like it is expected that Jews had documented records of Jewish Priests.

And further, the very ROMANS MUST have had some records of Jewish High Priests because some were INSTALLED by the Romans.

Can anyone please confirm that the sculpture, attributed to Josephus, according to this reference, was actually created in the first century ce?

Plagnieux, P. 'Les sculptures Romanes' Dossiers d'Archéologie (January 2001) pg 15

Where is the sculpture located, presently? Where was it created, by whom?

The theme of this thread, is, after all, Carrier's criticisms of Ehrman's article, in which Bart makes reference to Josephus....

I think we need to investigate more about the evidence surrounding this legendary character Josephus.

aa5874 · 03-24-2012, 08:08 AM

Bernard Muller puts forward the idea that it is completely reasonable and logical that Josephus got his List of Jewish High Priests from Jewish Records but simultaneously thinks it is UNLIKELY and NOT really logical that Josephus got information about a Roman governor from Roman records while Josephus himself may have been LIVING in Rome when he wrote Antiquities of the Jews.

youngalexander · 03-25-2012, 05:31 PM

Having dispatched Ehrman, Carrier now tears shreds off McGrath who has come to Ehrman's defence!!
McGrath on the Amazing Infallible Ehrman

Perhaps Gdon could enlighten us upon what Carrier 'should have written' in this blog?

Looks like RC is in a take no prisoners mood - Proving History is being posted as we speak!

Bernard Muller · 03-25-2012, 05:40 PM

to Tanya:

Quote:

Bernard, I believe you are mistaken here.

But you just quoted:

Quote:

In 71, he went to Rome in the entourage of Titus, becoming a Roman citizen and client of the ruling Flavian dynasty (hence he is often referred to as Flavius Josephus — see below). In addition to Roman citizenship, he was granted accommodation in conquered Judaea, and a decent, if not extravagant, pension. While in Rome and under Flavian patronage, Josephus wrote all of his known works. Although he uses "Josephus", he appears to have taken the Roman praenomen Titus and nomen Flavius from his patrons.[17] This was standard practice for "new" Roman citizens.

Does that look Josephus was a prisoner while in Rome?

tanya · 03-25-2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller, post 35

First , I do not think Ehrman included Josephus and Philo as Roman sources. Not in his article anyway. Furthermore, even if Josephus and Philo were very much connected to the Roman establishment, there is no evidence they had Roman citizenship. Even if they did, they were very much Jew, being, writing and thinking as Jews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In 71, he went to Rome in the entourage of Titus, becoming a Roman citizen and client of the ruling Flavian dynasty (hence he is often referred to as Flavius Josephus — see below). In addition to Roman citizenship, he was granted accommodation in conquered Judaea, and a decent, if not extravagant, pension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller, post 56

Does that look Josephus was a prisoner while in Rome?

No, it doesn't Bernard. This does:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The sole survivor of this process was Josephus (this method as a mathematical problem is referred to as the Josephus problem, or Roman Roulette[12]), who surrendered to the Roman forces and became a prisoner. In 69 Josephus was released.

The issue is whether or not Bart Ehrman has offered a credible review of the evidence favoring an historical Jesus, or conversely, offered compelling evidence to repudiate the idea that Jesus was a mythical creature. He has succeeded in neither venture.

If you wish to defend him, Bernard, may I suggest that you begin by defending Ehrman's notion of the "myth that Jesus was a mythical creature", paraphrasing, since I no longer recall Ehrman's exact quote.

Do you understand what is wrong with Ehrman's sentiment, Bernard?

GakuseiDon · 03-25-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

Having dispatched Ehrman, Carrier now tears shreds off McGrath who has come to Ehrman's defence!!
McGrath on the Amazing Infallible Ehrman

Perhaps Gdon could enlighten us upon what Carrier 'should have written' in this blog?

Looks like RC is in a take no prisoners mood - Proving History is being posted as we speak!

"Take no prisoners" mood indeed! Amazing stuff.

I had no problem with Carrier pointing out the problems and mistakes in Ehrman's Huff Post op-ed. What was shocking to me was the psychoanalyzing that took place as a result. Especially after he had just had the same thing done to him by Acharya S. (Ed to add: Carrier doesn't do this nearly as much in his comments about McGrath, which is good.)

Great theatre all-round though. And this is just the foreplay I suspect. The main event is when Carrier and Price move onto Ehrman's book. I hope you have a big bucket of pop-corn, youngalexander, this is going to be good!

Bernard Muller · 03-25-2012, 07:53 PM

to Tanya,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller, post 56
Does that look Josephus was a prisoner while in Rome?

No, it doesn't Bernard. This does:

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The sole survivor of this process was Josephus (this method as a mathematical problem is referred to as the Josephus problem, or Roman Roulette[12]), who surrendered to the Roman forces and became a prisoner. In 69 Josephus was released

So Josephus was released in 69. He was not a prisoner when in Rome.
Remember, what I objected to:

Quote:

when Josephus was IN ROME as a Captured Prisoner

No, he was not in Rome as a captured prisoner. Is that clear!

And the rest of your post, what does that have to do with Josephus in Rome as a prisoner!

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03-24-2012, 08:08 AM	#45
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Bernard Muller puts forward the idea that it is completely reasonable and logical that Josephus got his List of Jewish High Priests from Jewish Records but simultaneously thinks it is UNLIKELY and NOT really logical that Josephus got information about a Roman governor from Roman records while Josephus himself may have been LIVING in Rome when he wrote Antiquities of the Jews.

03-25-2012, 05:31 PM	#46
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	Having dispatched Ehrman, Carrier now tears shreds off McGrath who has come to Ehrman's defence!! McGrath on the Amazing Infallible Ehrman Perhaps Gdon could enlighten us upon what Carrier 'should have written' in this blog? Looks like RC is in a take no prisoners mood - Proving History is being posted as we speak!

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