Freethought & Rationalism Archive

purple_kathryn · 02-04-2008, 04:33 AM

I'm going with no.

Although in fairness it's not really relevant to me

Archer · 02-04-2008, 10:42 AM

Heres a link to some info on jesus & christian history.Maybe it can give more insight.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...y_nojesus.html

jjramsey · 02-04-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Heres a link to some info on jesus & christian history.Maybe it can give more insight.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...y_nojesus.html

It's the nonsense from Freke and Gandy again:

Quote:

Perhaps the most historically correct of all the theories is the apparently true theory that Christianity started out as much more Gnostic than it became from the 2nd century onwards, and the stories of Jesus and the disciples match those of other Mystery religions and Pagan religions precisely because Christianity was another Mystery Religion. Literalist Christianity as we know it was the Outer Mysteries of this spiritual religion. It explains why the historical centres of Christianity were all gnostic when literalist Christians went back to research the past, and why so many Pagan god-man elements are part of Christianity. It also explains why none of the scholars of the time mention Jesus or the miracles around his life, because even the Christians themselves knew that they were symbolic stories, not actual events.

Only later, and this is something Paul himself complains about, did the masses accept the Outer Mysteries of Christianity without accepting the true, deeper spiritual meanings of the story.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...JesusMysteries

I wrote up a review with an emphasis on how Freke & Gandy's claims often don't follow from their sources: http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/The_Jesus_Mysteries

mens_sana · 02-04-2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Or, some Christian scholars think that Jesus' body was thrown into a common grave, and his disciples experienced a spiritual appearance from him. The story of the empty tomb was invented sometime after 70 CE, by which time the Romans had flattened Jerusalem, and no one could check for evidence.

There are many other possibilities.

[Emphasis added above] If we were to grant that some disciples (and Paul) had a spiritual experience of the risen Christ, then numerous possibilities arise in terms of how they would explain such an experience in such a way that their contemporaries would understand it. That is, if there was a risen Christ, then an empty tomb is required for the passing on of the experience. Given that there would be some doubters, the presence of doubters would be required for the recounting. And the doubters would need some reasonable (for the time) proof, like touchy-feelee. Then, the pool of eyewitnesses would have to grow. If thousands saw him, it must be true and a risen Christ is convincing proof of "life" in the Imminent Kingdom. I think this could go on for a while.

Some years ago, a poster said that if he were writing up a life of the Messiah and one of the conditions of messiah-ship was consorting with prostitutes, then even though he had no record of the man doing so, he would have to include the story . . . .

mens_sana · 02-04-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

No one will ever convince me that the story of Jesus is not a collection of ancient myths
about some god-men who were a dime a dozen in those days.

Fundamentalism comes in all shades and colors, but always says, "No one will ever convince me that ...."

angelo · 02-05-2008, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Heres a link to some info on jesus & christian history.Maybe it can give more insight.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...y_nojesus.html

Also try this www.jesusneverexisted.com

Jonnicus · 02-05-2008, 11:40 AM

I think that, given the predictions of what the messiah was supposed to be at the time, and the traditions that rose up around him afterwards, it seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus as as real a figure as any Aristotle of the day.

Jonnicus

ApostateAbe · 02-05-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonnicus

I think that, given the predictions of what the messiah was supposed to be at the time, and the traditions that rose up around him afterwards, it seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus as as real a figure as any Aristotle of the day.

Jonnicus

Welcome to the IIDB, sir. I hope you stick around.

aa5874 · 02-05-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonnicus

I think that, given the predictions of what the messiah was supposed to be at the time, and the traditions that rose up around him afterwards, it seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus as as real a figure as any Aristotle of the day.

Jonnicus

Well, the predictions were that the Messiah would come at around 70CE. There are no known predictions that the Messiah would come at 30 CE. Joesphus in "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4, Suetonius in "Life of Vespasian" and Tacitus in "Histories" 5.13 all wrote that is was generally believed and found in the Scriptures that a ruler or rulers would come out of Judaea at around that time.

Philo, a Jew from Alexandria, did not mention that Jesus Christ existed at all in his extant writings and Philo lived at the same time Jesus was supposed to be alive.

The predictions as written in the NT are all out of context or mis-iterpreted and are not externally corroborated by Jewish writers of that time.

There are no known non-apologetic external source that can support any tradition of Jesus of Nazareth in the 1st century.

mountainman · 02-05-2008, 04:35 PM

Another thread exists in which the NO VOTE
is being discussed for its categorisation and
discussion.

Great minds think alike
or
Small minds seldom differ?

Which is it to be?
And how? And why?
And when, etc.
Who is at the end.
Bless his basilicas.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

View Poll Results: Was Jesus ever an actual human being?
Yes	45	20.93%
No	78	36.28%
Maybe	84	39.07%
Other	8	3.72%
Voters: 215. You may not vote on this poll

02-05-2008, 11:40 AM	#257
Jonnicus New Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Minnesota! Posts: 1	Yes I think that, given the predictions of what the messiah was supposed to be at the time, and the traditions that rose up around him afterwards, it seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus as as real a figure as any Aristotle of the day. Jonnicus

02-05-2008, 04:35 PM	#260
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	for those who voted no Another thread exists in which the NO VOTE is being discussed for its categorisation and discussion. Great minds think alike or Small minds seldom differ? Which is it to be? And how? And why? And when, etc. Who is at the end. Bless his basilicas. Best wishes, Pete Brown

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02-04-2008, 04:33 AM	#251
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	I'm going with no. Although in fairness it's not really relevant to me

02-04-2008, 10:42 AM	#252
Archer Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 130	Heres a link to some info on jesus & christian history.Maybe it can give more insight. http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/chri...y_nojesus.html

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