Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clouseau · 10-07-2007, 07:00 AM

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Originally Posted by John Kesler

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Originally Posted by Clouseau

Neither book states that angels raped women.

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I never used the word "raped,"

But rape would have been what they committed, if they had been permitted to come to earth, and if they had been given the capability to have sexual intercourse, both conditions being somewhat fantastic, quite out of character with the local text and the Bible as a whole. This greatly overgrown notion is the result of indulgence of salacious imagination; to say nothing of the human tendency to offload guilt. It was mankind with whom God was angry, mankind that was destroyed in the flood story, not angels. So, no earthly angels, no giants; just wicked humanity.

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but you are mistaken if you think that Jude and 2 Peter aren't talking about angels breeding with mortal women. Below is Jude 6-7 from the NRSV:
Notice that the text says that the angels in question "indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust" "in the same manner" as had the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah.

It says that the Sodomites rejected authority as had the angels, rebellion being Jude's subject. Paul associated rejection of authority with homosexuality in Romans.

Peter and Jude referred to the general rebellion of Satan and his angels.

mountainman · 10-07-2007, 07:40 AM

Can angels not make peace and love?
Why all this intolerance about angels?
Is there a law about consenting adults
and angels making love?

Apsu · 10-07-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apsu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

Vs 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred
and twenty years.

Those posts were great to read Magdlyn and Amedeo.

The part of this that really stood out to me was what I quoted above. Doesn't this say that god abandoned mankind, that he didn't think that we're good enough for him. It seems to me that this is the answer christians should be giving to atheists when asked why we never get proof of the existence of god, and also shows that there is no point in worshipping god—he doesn't want to bother with us anymore right?

Maybe my question is too unrelated to the topic at hand, but I had really hoped a bible defender would take my question seriously. It seems important to me, and I've been checking back for a response. Maybe I worded it too much as a statement when I meant it as a question. Maybe the answer is too simple and it seems like my question is rhetorical? If so, I don't know which side would see it as so, the atheist or the christian, so please enlighten me.

BlackWodin · 10-07-2007, 10:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Amedeo

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Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

What - dear scholars - should one make of this:
"Ch 6:vs 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of
the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Vs 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were
fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Vs 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred
and twenty years.
Vs 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after
that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,
and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown" ?

Sons of God - daughters of men? And "they bare children"?
Thank you for your kind attention

What do I make of this? First of all, there is a WRONG translation into English. The Biblical texts use the word ELOHIM, which means GODS. The translation is intententionally made that way so that the Elohim of Genesis-1 will not appear for what they are, namely the supreme gods of Canaan. Falsifiers of the text refuse to admit that -- as the text shows -- the Elohim created Man in THEIR own image: one male and one female. These Canaanite Gods had children. In one non-Bliblical account [See Ugarit and Ebla tablets], Yahweh was one of the sons of the Elohim. But this is another story.

In the Bible, neither the Elohim nor Yahweh had children, nor did they create angels (or Gabrie'El, Satana'El, Micha'El or other ministers of El, the male god), the nephilim, or talking serpents. All the Biblical references to gods (other than the ones in Genesis1-2), the sons of gods, the angels or archangels, the nephilism (giants), the evils spirits, the desease causing spirits, etc., come from pre-Biblical sources. Indeed, all such stories and Genesis-2 come from the Caucasian/Indo-European background of the Hebrews, whereas Genesis-1 and other occasional tales come from the Arab [Semitic] background of the Hebrews. [In other posts I explained the etymologies of the two Biblical deities and of the two ethnicities which merged so as to constitute the Hebrew people, which eventually became Abraham's Israel, headed by El, and then the Moses-reformed Israel, headed by Yahweh, and the eventual split between Judaea (after Moses) and "Israel" [Galilee] (after Abraham). Jesus was a Galilean and his God was El, and, in the words of some of our contemporaries, an anti-Semite!

The finally redacted or Hebrew Bible was written down mainly from the standpoint of the Judaeans. (It does not include any of the Galilean/Essene scriptures in the last couple of centuries B.C.... as the Bible was safeguarded in Yahweh's temple in Jerusalem (Judaea). Notice the canonical blank between the 3rd century B.C. and 70 A.D. or thereafter..... Yah stopped communicating with the Judaeans -- for those who believe that the Bible is the word of God or Theos (a convenient English or Greek word which obliterates the distinction between El and Yah). The temple of Galilee was destroyed much earlier than the one in Judea.

(I have already had violent reactions -- not refutations -- of the thesis about the two ethnicities of the Hebrews. At any rate, should you feel like reacting violently, too, just remember that, even according to the Bible, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews appear on the historical scene as the sons of Shem. Noah's first son was the founder of the Ionian [Greek] nations. The Hamites are actually different breeds of nations, and so on and so forth. All the stories, including the Flood, before the founding of nations, pertain to the "history" of mankind, not of the Hebrews. However, they are highly selected, in view of the history of the Shemites. So, for example, the first chapters of the Book of Genesis do not include the best Greek account of the Genesis of the world, or the real history of mankind prior to agriculture. So, the Adam family starts out with people expert in shepherding and agriculture. (It's the story of the Tower of Babel, that gives a hint of that fact, that at a point of history there was a "confusion" or commingling of languages, which, I would say, where proto-Greek and proto-Arabic, one result being the Hebrew language.)

The hypothesis of the two-ethnicities of the Hebrews has been laid out. Look for evidence in the gods (etymology and their Modus Operandi), the common language, and the diverse racial physiognomies of one people. They are not the proto-humans, and the so-called Semitic language is not the one that God and Adam used to converse... in case anyone should seriously believe that the Bible is the real history of the world.

In Judaism, it is known that God has more than one name. 500 is the approx number. From what I have learnt, "Yaweh or Jehovah is the bastardization of Yod Heh Vav Heh." This is the normal name for Christians, but Jews will pronouce it Adonai, Our Lord... "No attempt is made to pronouce the true name of God. The Hellenistic Jews called it the Tetragrammaton as do many people today."
Whilst Judaism has changed from Pharisical to Rabbinical, it's not much different than it was 2,000 years ago.

There is quite a popular video giving the outline of this viewpoint, cirucluating the YouTube - is that where you get your ideas?

The TRUTH is that YHVH and El are not two seperate beings...but one. Not many, but a single. Just like I am a father and a hudband and a brother - seperate roles - one person.

* Quotes in italic have been taken from a response given by a Rabinical Student (Lady Garnet Rose) regarding this topic on another forum.

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

But rape would have been what they committed, if they had been permitted to come to earth, and if they had been given the capability to have sexual intercourse,

Could've been seduction. They could've made themselves real purty and irresistable.

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both conditions being somewhat fantastic, quite out of character with the local text and the Bible as a whole.

Not really. For example: Lot's daughters got him drunk and he had sex with them. Granted, Lot was not an angel, altho "angels" (using the later definition of divine being) ministered to him, and YHWH called him the only righteous man in Sodom.

Some people interpret Gabriel's role as going a bit beyond "annunciating" to Mary, as well. :angel:

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This greatly overgrown notion is the result of indulgence of salacious imagination; to say nothing of the human tendency to offload guilt. It was mankind with whom God was angry, mankind that was destroyed in the flood story, not angels. So, no earthly angels, no giants; just wicked humanity.

We have already established above that

1) The sons of El were not angels, they were Levantine gods. El was co-opted from Babylon by the Judaeans.

2) The sons of El and the Nephilim have nothing to do with the flood story. They are juxtaposed in the text but not linked as cause and effect.

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Peter and Jude referred to the general rebellion of Satan and his angels.

What general rebellion was that, again? Surely you are not referring to the Babylonian king nicknamed the Lightbringer (Lucifer in Latin, aka the planet Venus), also known as the son of the Goddess Dawn of the Babylonian pantheon?

Now who's being "imaginative?"

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackWodin

In Judaism, it is known that God has more than one name. 500 is the approx number...

There is quite a popular video giving the outline of this viewpoint, cirucluating the YouTube - is that where you get your ideas?

LOL Give us a bit more credit than that.

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The TRUTH is that YHVH and El are not two seperate beings...but one.

The TRUTH is that what you state is mere apologia and theology, not textual criticism.

Another "name of God" is El Shaddai. This is commonly translated as God Almighty. The original Hebrew tells us Shaddai is taken from the Hebrew word for breast, rendering El Shaddai as Breasted Goddess. This El Shaddai invariably falls in texts referring to fertility-- check it out.

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 12:15 PM

Apsu:

Quote:

Ch 6:
Vs 2 ... the sons of El saw the daughters of men were
fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Vs 3 And YHWH said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred
and twenty years.
Vs 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after
that, when the sons of El came in unto the daughters of men,
and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apsu

Maybe my question is too unrelated to the topic at hand, but I had really hoped a bible defender would take my question seriously. It seems important to me, and I've been checking back for a response... please enlighten me.

Apsu, I am not a Bible defender. I prefer to study the Bible from a textual critical POV. Please see where I have returned the "names of God" to the Hebrew in the above quote. If you look at the thread on this forum called Book of Genesis..., and see the posts by Dean Anderson about the Documentary Hypothesis, you will get a clue to the difficulty with the above passage. Verses 2 and 4 refer to El, verse 3 to YHWH. They come from the hands of different authors. If you leave out verse 3, there is narrative flow between 2 and 4.

Like this:

Quote:

...The sons of El saw the daughters of men were
fair; and they took as wives all which they chose.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after
that, when the sons of El came in unto [ie: had sex with] the
daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became
mighty men, which were of old, men of renown.

Which is unrelated to:

Quote:

YHWH said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred
and twenty years.

In other words, when fleshly humans get to be 120 yrs old, I will withdraw my spirit from them, ie: they will die.

No big mystery, just a way of answering the question, why do we die?

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 12:49 PM

Keep in mind the linguistic tidbit, the word for spirit and breath are the same in Hebrew, ruach. Also in Greek, pneuma.

BlackWodin · 10-07-2007, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Amedeo

... In the Bible, neither the Elohim nor Yahweh had children,

The Bible disagrees with you:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amedeo

... nor did they create angels (or Gabrie'El, Satana'El, Micha'El or other ministers of El, the male god), the nephilim, or talking serpents. ...

The Bible disagrees with you:

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Jesus quoted scripture.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust

Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus spoke scripture.

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 03:35 PM

BW, this is an Old Testament discussion. No need to provide multiple "Bible" quotes. We know Jesus spoke of his "Father."

Your last quote refers to the children of Israel, not of YHWH.

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10-07-2007, 07:40 AM	#32
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Can angels not make peace and love? Why all this intolerance about angels? Is there a law about consenting adults and angels making love?

10-07-2007, 12:49 PM	#38
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Keep in mind the linguistic tidbit, the word for spirit and breath are the same in Hebrew, ruach. Also in Greek, pneuma.

10-07-2007, 03:35 PM	#40
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	BW, this is an Old Testament discussion. No need to provide multiple "Bible" quotes. We know Jesus spoke of his "Father." Your last quote refers to the children of Israel, not of YHWH.

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