Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 05-27-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Unless we're going to start calling the "God Fearers" Jewish, I'm going to have a hard time calling Hellenized Judaism "Hellenism."

Do you think the "Christians" Saul persecuted before converting could have been God-Fearers? IOW, do you think a credible argument could be made that Christianity originated within that group?

Amaleq13 · 05-27-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In general 2nd century CE Hellenism took a bleaker view of the world than had been usual before.

Thanks, Andrew.

So this idea was not common in 1st century Hellenism but also not unknown?

Is there no trace of this sort of view of the world coming from 1st century Judaism?

Casper · 05-28-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

if you can believe that the worship of Jesus on a Sunday and why Jesus has 12 apostles (sun worship) is Jewish...the worship of virgins is Jewish, I have a bridge I want to sell you...

The New Testament ONLY makes sense as a Greek attempt to convert Jews, no other way. The only way they could do that was use examples in the Torah about the Messiah to make Jesus acceptable to the Jews. And yes, they probably used Jewish converts to this new religion to make the new likeness. It is also unlikely that Jews would call themselves "sons of the devil" and blame their own bretheren for deicide which is what the Gospels do.

Christianity didn't happen in a vacuum.

Can we turn that on its head for a moment, and please be gentle with me here, but if one accepts Markan priority in Roman circles, could the Jewish connection be more of an attempt to gain "respect" for non-pagan and originally non-jewsih theism? Persecution and all that....

Rick Sumner · 05-28-2005, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Do you think the "Christians" Saul persecuted before converting could have been God-Fearers? IOW, do you think a credible argument could be made that Christianity originated within that group?

I don't know, it's an interesting proposition--I never really considered that option. I do think the people Paul sought to convert were God-fearers, they're the only Gentiles I can think of who he'd have such success with.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

andrewcriddle · 05-28-2005, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Thanks, Andrew.

So this idea was not common in 1st century Hellenism but also not unknown?

Is there no trace of this sort of view of the world coming from 1st century Judaism?

Some of the DSS might be relevant

eg the community rule has in section III

Quote:

...All the children of light are ruled by the Prince of Light and walk in the ways of light but all the children of injustice are ruled by the Angel of Darkness and walk in the ways of darkness. The Angel of Darkness leads all tthe children of righteousness astray and until his end all their sin iniquities wickedness and all their unlawful deeds are caused by his dominion in accordance with the mysteries of God. Every one of their chastisements and every one of the seasons of their distress shall be brought about by the rule of his persecution for all his allotted spirits seek the overthrow of the sons of light

etc

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13 · 05-28-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

I don't know, it's an interesting proposition--I never really considered that option. I do think the people Paul sought to convert were God-fearers, they're the only Gentiles I can think of who he'd have such success with.

So it would be a question of whether he was bringing it to them or trying to increase the existing numbers. Sticking with where it had already worked and already obtained a following, IOW.

What I'm trying to understand, beyond this thread, is the scenario Paul seems to describe in his letters. He persecuted the "Church of God" but only outside Judea (Gal1:22). Why only them? What was different about their beliefs as opposed to the beliefs of the one's persecuting them? If the persecutors are Jews rather than Christian-Jews, what was different about the beliefs of the persecuted from the Jerusalem group who appears not to have been?

Amaleq13 · 05-28-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Some of the DSS might be relevant

Any specific book recommendation? spin has suggested one some time ago but I'll have to look for the specifics.

Quote:

eg the community rule has in section III etc

That seems to me more like what Rick suggested (evil leader of the opposition) as opposed to a belief that the world was controlled by such an evil power. Am I making too much of the difference?

Rick Sumner · 05-28-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

That seems to me more like what Rick suggested (evil leader of the opposition) as opposed to a belief that the world was controlled by such an evil power. Am I making too much of the difference?

I'm not sure that there is a difference, except in phrasing and degree--more semantic than actual.

Paul doesn't think the *whole* world is run by evil. His converts are freed from that--freed by entry into the New Covenant. It's just that that evil, evil world is going to try and trap them, and those outside the covenant are a part of that evil world. If you don't see the truth, you must be run by a baddie. It is the opposition, not the community, that is run by evil. He just views the opposition as being rather large.

So it is in the Dead Sea texts. They are the remnant, they walk after the path of righteousness. Those other bastards? Led by demons they are.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

freigeister · 05-29-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Because they do evil unrepentantly. Not because he's down on sacrifice.

Read the very next verse:

Quote:

Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

Amos 5:25

Sacrifice is a superstitious pollution of Judaism that the prophets opposed.

Chili · 05-29-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freigeister

Read the very next verse:

Sacrifice is a superstitious pollution of Judaism that the prophets opposed.

Fourty years and die nonehteless instead of fourty months is what the prophets had in mind. Right? IOW, God wants YOU and not your stupid sacrifice.

Good to see you pounding away here freigeister! :wave:

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