CJD

Erm, that's not what Yamauchi wrote. To refresh:
Polytheism was the norm, and, according to the prophetic literature (even that which is interspersed throughout the TNK [e.g., Deut. 28:15–29:29]), was precisely the reason the north was exiled. "Since these Israelites had already apostasized …", in my understanding, is not shocking. From the very day they were supposedly created as a nation (i.e., at Sinai) they had apostasized (i.e., the golden calf). Yamauchi's point is arguably not "when" Israel dropped its exclusive allegiance (for, according to the text, it never was), but the notion that when the north finally received the curse of the covenant (i.e., exile) they would have no qualms about adding to the mix Mesopotamian deities.

Regards,

CJD

spin

Perhaps you are working on another usage of "to apostasize". It usually means to start off with some belief (in this case, I gather, the belief in the Jewish god after the religion had basically become monotheistic) and then leave it for something else. One then has to assume that the Israelites had the belief concerned and had left it in order to accuse them of apostasy. There is no historical evidence for such a position.

Utter drivel. He wrote "Since these Israelites had already apostasized from an exclusive allegiance to Yahweh, many probably had no compunction about worshipping the alien gods of their new Mesopotamian homeland."

Note "from an exclusive allegiance to Yahweh"? That's what I originally complained about -- the belief driven assumption of the historicity of the text.


spin

Julian

What spin said... ^^

Sheshbazzar

Even The Scriptures admit that during the time of EliYah (Elijah) the Prophet there were only 7000 in of all of Israel who were followers of Yahweh;

"I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the "Lord".
(1 Kings 19:18 and Romans 11:4)

This was that same Prophet that spoke unto to Ahab saying;

"You have forsaken the commandments of Yahweh, and you have followed after "the Lords". (1 Kings 18:18)

No strange thing then that these false 'prophets' of "Baal Gawd" still go around saying "the Lord says, the Lord says, the Lord says" with the blood of innocent and honest men all over their hands.

andrewcriddle

It may depend on what you mean by polytheism.

IF you mean that the norm at the time of the Assyrian invasion included things that later Judaism and the canonical Hebrew Scriptures would regard as incompatible with strict monotheism then I would agree with you.

IF you mean that the norm included the worship of several more or less equal divine beings without any special/unique status being granted to Yahweh then I would be much more dubious.

Andrew Criddle

spin

If someone feels compelled to change the English representation of the name normally represented by "Elijah", you'd think you'd get it right. Certainly not EliYah, it's more like EliYahu.

The text literally says "...all the knees that have not bent to Baal..." Two knees to one person, so 3500 ("men" not specified in the text) left in Israel.

Romans obviously is irrelevant because it is not a primary source in the matter. Can you demonstrate a date of writing of 1 Kings which is relevant to the discourse?

When you can show a reliable dating for 1 Kings, perhaps we might start to consider the historical value of its content.

Did anyone before, say, the hypothesized date of Jeremiah believe in a monotheistic Yahweh?? The evidence from the period doesn't suggest such a possibility. This should mean that Yamauchi doesn't know what he's talking about.


spin

spin

How do you account for the epigraphy which talks of Yahweh and his Asherah from Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom? Why were there mother goddess figurines found in Palestine from even 2nd temple times? Why was there a high place in operation at Malhah during the reign of Josiah who alledgedly did away with the high places? Why do the prophets including Ezekiel rail against cultic activities "under every green tree"? Why is there both a pillar and a tree in the sanctuary of the Lord in Josh 24:26? Why are there Mot theophorics in the bible, eg Ahimot and Azmot ("Azmaveth")? Why in Dt 32:8-9 when Elyon apportioned the nations, did Yahweh receive Jacob? Conflicting views abound, polytheistic, later henotheistic, later monotheistic all lumped together in the Hebrew bible, though the epigraphic and archaeological records are less ambivalent, indicating polytheism. The Dt 32 reference leads us directly back to Ugarit and a close parallel with Baal, but then there are numerous parallels to be made between the Baal literature and the bible, and, as Baal was part of a pantheon, the indications for Yahweh are similar.


spin

andrewcriddle

Whatever the meaning of 'Yahweh and his Asherah' I doubt if it gives Asherah an equal status with Yahweh which was my point.

Andrew Criddle

(I'll be away from my computer till monday so won't be able to respond further till then)

spin

Asherah is (the title of) a goddess known throughout the Levant. Whatever the case, the reference is strictly polytheistic.


spin

Chris Weimer

Andrew, easily handled, as Asherah was his consort.