Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hjalti · 05-21-2012, 03:20 PM

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The conference around this book has been rescheduled, after the original location fired Anthony LeDonne for heresy.

I find it amazing that these scholars were willing to have an conference at a place like that to begin with. That university requires their faculty to have Christian, non-critical view of the holy books of that particular religion. I mean, would medical researchers be willing to have a conference at a "homeopathic university"?

hjalti · 05-21-2012, 03:46 PM

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Originally Posted by hjalti

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The conference around this book has been rescheduled, after the original location fired Anthony LeDonne for heresy.

I find it amazing that these scholars were willing to have an conference at a place like that to begin with. That university requires their faculty to have Christian, non-critical view of the holy books of that particular religion. I mean, would medical researchers be willing to have a conference at a "homeopathic university"?

And I just found out the reason: Anthony LeDonne contributes to the book. Amazing.

Toto · 05-21-2012, 04:15 PM

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Originally Posted by hjalti

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Originally Posted by hjalti

I find it amazing that these scholars were willing to have an conference at a place like that to begin with. That university requires their faculty to have Christian, non-critical view of the holy books of that particular religion. I mean, would medical researchers be willing to have a conference at a "homeopathic university"?

And I just found out the reason: Anthony LeDonne contributes to the book. Amazing.

I gather that LeDonne was a major force behind the book. He was teaching at Lincoln Christian University in spite of not being exactly orthodox, and they finally bowed to pressure from some major donors and fired him.

The conference is now being held at two more liberal Christian colleges in Ohio, one Methodist and one Catholic. The conference will probably be over before either the Inquisition or the IRD get wind of it.

hjalti · 05-21-2012, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by hjalti

And I just found out the reason: Anthony LeDonne contributes to the book. Amazing.

I gather that LeDonne was a major force behind the book. He was teaching at Lincoln Christian University in spite of not being exactly orthodox, and they finally bowed to pressure from some major donors and fired him.

The conference is now being held at two more liberal Christian colleges in Ohio, one Methodist and one Catholic. The conference will probably be over before either the Inquisition or the IRD get wind of it.

I would love to know the ratio of scholars from pseudo-scholarly universities (like Lincloln Christian University) is in the SBL. Are you guys aware of any surveys or research into this? I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I find the pseudo-scholarly side of religious studies very fascinating (and no, I'm not just thinking of the HJ stuff, but also stuff like much of "feminist theology" and stuff like that)

Edit: Just to clarify, by "pseudo-scholarly" universities, I'm talking about universities that require their faculty to hold to non-critical, supernaturalistic beliefs regarding the bible (e.g. inerrant, inspired by god et cetera).

James The Least · 05-21-2012, 06:30 PM

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Originally Posted by barre

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Originally Posted by aa5874;7043132[/quote

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Originally Posted by Toto

A new book has been announced and can be preordered on Amazom:

Jesus, Criteria, and the Demise of Authenticity (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by Chris Keith and Anthony La Donne........... The forward to the book is available here

It's the beginning of the end for the historical Jesus.

Hooker does not argue that the historical Jesus did not exist, only that we do not have adequate methods (criteria) for discovering him. She in fact states that Jesus was a historical figure:

"It is indisputable that he was put to death by the
Roman authorities – though to what extent the Jewish authorities were involved is far from clear – and that his followers came to believe that he had been raised from thedead, though how and where they came to that conviction it is now impossible to say."

It is astonishing to me that someone can (correctly) observe that we do not have adequate criteria for discovering the HJ, and then turn around and say with absolute certainty that he was "put to death by the Roman authorities."
As if it were impossible for a mystagogue to invent that little detail.

aa5874 · 05-21-2012, 06:41 PM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

It is astonishing to me that someone can (correctly) observe that we do not have adequate criteria for discovering the HJ, and then turn around and say with absolute certainty that he was "put to death by the Roman authorities."
As if it were impossible for a mystagogue to invent that little detail.

The HJ argument is derived from logical fallacies.

James The Least · 05-21-2012, 06:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Hey. My Internet has been down, but it now appears that frustrating delay has worked out better anyway.

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Originally Posted by No Robots

So where does the "goyim's syncretized mythical sun god" come in? Is it the product of "post-Temple non-indigenous Hellenistic 'Jews'?"

Certain renegade post-Temple Hellenistic Jew's found it more profitable to syncretize, than to continue weeping for a earthly Jewish Temple.
The goyim wanted a god in human form so they obliged by creating a 'son' of the Hebrew's god named Jeebus.

They were quite willing to incorporate whatever the goyim demanded, (or if they weren't, the goy easily added it latter) so we ended up with a composite son of gawd sun gawd Jeebus, with the insane rituals and sayings of wine, blood, water, and fire drawn from this, that and whatever foreign philosophy/religion/cultic practice.

Even pre-Christian Jewish midrashic writings were already incorporating the Hades hell-fire and brimstone ideas gleaned from the religions of Hellenism religions and Zoroastrianism into their writings. The destruction of Jerusalem and its centralized and established old-guard Jewish cult and power structure only hastened the process.
Other Judeans stuck to their ancient religious beliefs, and their hopes for the restoration of their land and Temple along with its traditional rites and sacrifices. And the coming of a real human Messiach. These still do.
That is why they are Jewish rather than turning into half-baked Christians, Muslims, or other mongrel religions.

This is why I said 'A Jew shouldn't be engaged in attempting to legitimize any claims for the goyim's syncretized mythical sun god.'
Jeebus is f..king mytical fraud. One that no true Jew anywhere should ever touch with a ten foot pole, much less embrace as ever being any real citizen of Israel.

That ought to be clear enough.

It's clear, but I think you're mistaken in assuming there must have been a renegade Hellenistic Jewish core to Christianity. Such a hypothesis isn't necessary. No ethnic Jews were needed to start the ball rolling, just Greeks and Egyptians, "true Judeans," who wanted to take control of monotheism. The Jesus crucifixion/resurrection legend is a clever allegory for this process.

arnoldo · 05-21-2012, 06:53 PM

Anthony Le Donne writes that he was fired in response for his book, Historical Jesus: What Can We Know and How Can We Know It? (or via: amazon.co.uk).

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I am writing with disappointing news. After over a year of pressure from Lincoln Christian University donors, concerned citizens, and certain employees, the president of the university has decided to terminate my employment. I have been told that this decision is in direct response to the publication of my popular-level book, Historical Jesus (Eerdmans, 2011). I have no doubt that the LCU administration made a staunch effort on my behalf, but eventually needed to assuage the fears of (what I am told) is a largely anti-intellectual constituency.

Many of you have emailed with sympathies. Thank you for your concern. I can honestly say that I am quite well. I hold no animosity toward the administration of LCU and I am grateful for the opportunity to have met so many kindred spirits here in central Illinois. My deepest feeling at this point is concern for the colleagues I leave behind at LCU. The phrases “scapegoat”, “akademische Freiheit,” and “the state of evangelical higher education” have been frequent refrains in the many supportive emails I’ve received in the last week. I feel no need to make any statements at this point about these topics. I will only say that I remain proud of my work and stand behind it.

anthony le donne

–
Anthony Le Donne, PhD

When Ideology and Indoctrination are More Important Than Education: The Bizarre Firing of Anthony Le Donne

I'm currently re-reading Historical Jesus: What Can We Know and How Can We Know It? and it seems to be favoring a HJ rather than a MJ. To me this makes his firing for allegedly writing this book bizarre. Amazon.com has the following description of the book in question.

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Historical Jesus asks two primary questions: What does “historical” mean? and How should we apply this to Jesus?

Anthony Le Donne begins with the unusual step of considering human perception — how sensory data from sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell are interpreted from the very beginning by what we expect, what we’ve learned, and how we categorize the world. In this way Le Donne shows how historical memories are initially formed. He continues with the nature of human memory and how it interacts with group memories. Finally, he offers a philosophy of history and uses it to outline three dimensions from the life of Jesus: his dysfunctional family, his politics, and his final confrontation in Jerusalem.

This little book is ideal for those with no background in religious studies — even those with no faith — who wish to better understand who Jesus was and how we can know what we do know about him.

Toto · 05-21-2012, 08:03 PM

This has nothing to do with mythicism. It may have to do with other issues that are hot among evangelicals - "modernism," post-modernism, biblical inerrancy, infant baptism, or who knows.

Euangelion blog

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. . . I’m scratching my head trying to figure out exactly what heresy Le Donne has committed or what doctrine he has denied that warrants his dismissal. I’d like to hear the precise details from his accusers as to what theological error he has purportedly advocated....

My suspicion, and it is no more than that, is that there are some folks around who just don’t get historical Jesus studies, because they have a preconceived view that the Gospels are basically the script from four independent documentaries, where journalists followed Jesus around, taking notes on what they saw, and the Gospels are the end product. Sensing pressure from this constituency, uninformed as it is, the LCU administrators capitulated to calls for the removal of Le Donne from his post.

...Just because a few old ladies out in the sticks don’t get the synoptic problem, or believe in John’s tweaking with chronology, or gel with Luke’s redaction of Mark, and are threatening not to send the proceeds of their bake sale to the university scholarship fund, is no reason to dismiss a scholar from a university … without forfeiting your reputation for being a Christian University.

The first comment calls him on his sexism

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Far more likely, it wasn't uninformed women creating a stir but radically partisan neo-fundementalist literalists, who, incidentally, usually happen to be white males with PhDs

other comments:

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Sadly, based on what has happened to others of a similar nature, the problems are caused by alumni, and especially parents, who "hear" that professors at a Christian school are raising and asking too many questions.

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It's my understanding that LeDonne belongs to the Presbyterian Church (USA). Now, the unforgivable sin among colleges associated with these churches (Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) is affiliation with a paedo-baptist communion.... I'd wager his termination has little to do with the more controversial aspects of historical Jesus criteria--an eye-glazing topic among anti-intellectual restorationists--and much more to do with the insurmountable stigma of infant baptism.

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What appears to have gotten Bird's and others' proverbial knickers in a knot is that supporters of Lincoln Christian University were insisting that its administrators maintain the school as a confessional, traditioned academy. That Mr. LeDonne appears to hold to another tradition that is diametrically at odds with the historically held tradition of Lincoln Christian University.

This essay by Le Donne on modernism was posted as an example of his ideological deviance.

James The Least · 05-22-2012, 06:40 AM

As we all know, there is a large gap between what NT scholars like LeDonne write and think about the historical Jesus, and what the American church-going public thinks about the historical Jesus. The latter isn't even aware of the most basic problems and issues of the subject, and want to continue on like it's 1700 and two hundred years of serious critical scholarship just doesn't exist. Jesus is God, the Bible is God's Word, and the purpose of theology is to reinforce those concepts, not ask questions that might cause doubt.

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05-22-2012, 06:40 AM	#150
James The Least Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: USA Posts: 393	As we all know, there is a large gap between what NT scholars like LeDonne write and think about the historical Jesus, and what the American church-going public thinks about the historical Jesus. The latter isn't even aware of the most basic problems and issues of the subject, and want to continue on like it's 1700 and two hundred years of serious critical scholarship just doesn't exist. Jesus is God, the Bible is God's Word, and the purpose of theology is to reinforce those concepts, not ask questions that might cause doubt.

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