FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-17-2006, 07:11 AM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Close to Chicago, closer to Joliet
Posts: 1,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triffidfood
Just a thought, but would (former) Zealots or sicarii really be likely to choose to follow someone who (apparently, depending how you interpret the verses) told people to pay taxes to Rome? Opposition to the census (in 6CE) and to paying taxes was a starting point for the Zealots, so far as I understand it, so would they really have felt inclined to follow someone who, apparently, preached the exact opposite?
A thought in response to your own: what are taxes? Coins minted by the romans, and transactions carried out therewith, should be given back to the romans per their wishes. Isn't that the 'content' of the, "Give to Cesar," passages? The 'cleverness' of Jesus' response to his antagonists may be that barter & trade (using no roman currency) was not to be so taxed.
drewjmore is offline  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:11 AM   #12
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewjmore
Were(Are) there not sects of orthodox christians who deny 'bodily' resurrection?
No. Only heresies.

Quote:
Except (according to wiki, anyway) 'Iscariot' names Judas as one of the Sicarii. And Peter carried a sword in the garden. Reading between the lines, perhaps pure pacifism was not really the essential nature of JC's teaching.
Swords were comonly carried for protection as times were dangerous.
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:46 AM   #13
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 801
Default

Some of the parallels between the New Testament and the writings of Josephus regarding the Pharisees and the Sadducees are quite striking. http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/nt....htm#Pharisees

Regarding the Pharisees...

Quote:
Pharisees

Matt 23:1
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their tefillin broad and their tallit long. They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students."

Lk 14:1 - 14
On one occasion when Jesus was going to the house of a leader of the Pharisees to eat a meal on the sabbath, they were watching him closely.... He said to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors; for they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. Then you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

One of the dinner guests, on hearing this, said to him, "Blessed is anyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Antiquities 18.1.2-3 11-13 (see also War 2.8.14 162-166 and Ant. 13.171-173)

The Jews since antiquity have had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves, that of the Essenes, of the Sadducees, and the third the philosophy of those called the Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I touch a little upon them now.

Now the Pharisees simplify their way of life and give in to no sort of softness; and they follow the guidance of what their doctrine has handed down and prescribes as good; and they earnestly strive to observe the commandments it dictates to them. They also show respect to the elders, nor are they so bold as to contradict them in any thing they have introduced. Although they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since it has pleased God to make a combination of his council-chamber and of the people who wish to approach with their virtue and their vice. They also believe that souls have an immortal power in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments according to whether they showed virtue or vice in this life; the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but the former are allowed an easy passage through and live again. Because of these doctrines they hold great influence among the populace, and all divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices are performed according to their direction. In doing so the cities bear witness to all their virtuous conduct, both in their way of life and in their words.


Comment

The Pharisees have a long and varied history. They became influential during the reign of the Hasmoneans and gained considerable power under Queen Alexandra. There are many references to Pharisees both in the New Testament and in Josephus, as well as in the Talmud.

The passages quoted above demonstrate the agreement in the two works that the Pharisees believe in the resurrection of the virtuous. Moreover, we find in Luke that the key term Jesus uses, the "kingdom of God," is used by the Pharisees to mean the time after the resurrection, the World to Come. Whether Jesus means the same thing by this phrase or not is one of the open questions of scholarship. See, for example, Lk 17:20: "Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, 'Look here it is!' or 'There it is!' For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

In agreement also is the dependence the people had on the Pharisees to instruct them in doctrine. Jesus agrees with the majority in saying "do what they teach you and follow it."

But Matthew's Jesus varies from Josephus in saying the Pharisees do not conduct their "way of life" as they teach it, nor do they live with complete simplicity. But note the different versions of this passage in Mark 12:38, where it is only the "scribes," and not the Pharisees, who are castigated for their love of long clothing, honors, and the best seats in the synagogues and at banquets. (Compare this to Luke 20:46 and 11:43.)

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/nt....htm#Pharisees

Regarding the Sadducees...

Quote:
Sadducees


Lk 20:27 (Mk 12:18, Matt. 22:23; see also Acts 5:17, Acts 23:8)

Some Sadducees, those who say there is no resurrection, came to him and asked him a question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antiquities 18.2.4 16-17 (see also War 2.8.14 162-166)

But the doctrine of the Sadducees is that souls die with the bodies. Nor do they perform any observance other than what the Law enjoins them. They think it virtuous to dispute with the teachers of the wisdom they pursue. This doctrine is accepted but by a few, but those are of the highest standing. But they are able to accomplish almost nothing, for when they hold office they are unwillingly and by force obliged to submit to the teachings of the Pharisees, because the multitude would not otherwise tolerate them.


Comment

The quoted passages agree that the Sadducees do not believe in a resurrection. Otherwise, the gospels have little to say about them, usually lumping them in with the Pharisees, which perhaps indicates how little impact they had on daily life, as Josephus explains.

In Acts, however, Sadducees are somewhat more active. Paul takes advantage of the disagreement on the resurrection after his arrest (Acts 23:6-10), by siding with the Pharisees and creating a debate among the council, thus distracting everyone from the charge against him.

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/nt....htm#Sadducees
DavidfromTexas is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:04 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.