Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 02-02-2010, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Just figure out who Melchizadek (sp?) was worshiping and you got it!

The one in Genesis 14 was a high priest of El. He never heard of Yahweh. Genesis 14 is an old Canaanite story. The ‘Yahweh’ in verse 22 is a gloss.

Bingo.

In my mind, you are on the right track regarding Marcion's stranger god. Marcion was an OT literalist, even more so then current OT literalists...

dog-on · 02-02-2010, 01:02 AM

Now, just for fun, whose god do Christians actually worship?

The Jewish God or Marcion's?

maryhelena · 02-02-2010, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yes, basically there was a movement afoot to make the OT god have a son - Marcion says, no way. He sets up his own god who was able to have a son....This son, Marcion's Jesus - is a non-Jewish Jesus ie. a non-Jewish Jesus who was not a product, or fulfillment, of the OT prophecies. I'm not actually interested in any Christology arguments - I'm interested in finding a historical core to the gospel storyline. And in that endeavor, Marcion's idea of a non-Jewish Jesus seems to be, to my mind, to have an important story to tell ie a story beyond any Christology debates...

Non-Jewish as in Non-Human, not as in gentile.

Indeed, Jesus is a non-human - but that statement does not get one very far in trying to understand how early christianity got up and running...Wells, after many years looking into these matters - had to finally subscribe to the idea of an itinerant Galilean preacher - ie a historical core to the gospel Jesus storyline. If mythicists are hell bent on supposing the whole thing re the gospel storyline fell out of the sky on one fine day - ie is one great big floating abstraction - methinks they need to stop looking upwards and come back down to earth and start looking on the ground...

dog-on · 02-02-2010, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Non-Jewish as in Non-Human, not as in gentile.

Indeed, Jesus is a non-human - but that statement does not get one very far in trying to understand how early christianity got up and running...Wells, after many years looking into these matters - had to finally subscribe to the idea of an itinerant Galilean preacher - ie a historical core to the gospel Jesus storyline. If mythicists are hell bent on supposing the whole thing re the gospel storyline fell out of the sky on one fine day - ie is one great big floating abstraction - methinks they need to stop looking upwards and come back down to earth and start looking on the ground...

I don't think it fell out of the sky one day. I think it stewed for a few centuries, in various forms.

Loomis · 02-02-2010, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Marcion's Jesus was the son of the greater god, not the lesser god (the demiurge, identified with YHWH) who made this imperfect world.

Keep in mind that Jesus (the Word) did the creating in John 1:1-3, and that according to Romans 10:13 Jesus was the Lord that Joel 2:32 wrote about. So technically that would make Jesus Yahweh and now we’re all screwed up again. :rolling:

And as a byproduct we have the totem pole where Yahweh is a son of El again.

It’s all bullshit. It’s hilarious.

dog-on · 02-02-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Marcion's Jesus was the son of the greater god, not the lesser god (the demiurge, identified with YHWH) who made this imperfect world.

Keep in mind that Jesus (the Word) did the creating in John 1:1-3, and that according to Romans 10:13 Jesus was the Lord that Joel 2:32 wrote about. So technically that would make Jesus Yahweh and now we’re all screwed up again. :rolling:

It’s all bullshit. It’s hilarious.

I think the Mormons view Jesus as Yahweh and God as El, or Elohim. Again, this is right out of the OT, with variation...

maryhelena · 02-02-2010, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Indeed, Jesus is a non-human - but that statement does not get one very far in trying to understand how early christianity got up and running...Wells, after many years looking into these matters - had to finally subscribe to the idea of an itinerant Galilean preacher - ie a historical core to the gospel Jesus storyline. If mythicists are hell bent on supposing the whole thing re the gospel storyline fell out of the sky on one fine day - ie is one great big floating abstraction - methinks they need to stop looking upwards and come back down to earth and start looking on the ground...

I don't think it fell out of the sky one day. I think it stewed for a few centuries, in various forms.

I think one needs a pot before one can set about stewing anything - sure, many are the ideas that floated around - but they needed a pot before they could be stewed - they needed an anchor in reality if they were to be of any benefit - pie in the sky ideas are great - but to 'walk' these ideas needed a strong dose of clay....

dog-on · 02-02-2010, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I don't think it fell out of the sky one day. I think it stewed for a few centuries, in various forms.

I think one needs a pot before one can set about stewing anything - sure, many are the ideas that floated around - but they needed a pot before they could be stewed - they needed an anchor in reality if they were to be of any benefit - pie in the sky ideas are great - but to 'walk' these ideas needed a strong dose of clay....

A pinch of Hellenism with a scoop of Jewish midrash mixed together in a Roman pot, slowly brought to a boil...

maryhelena · 02-02-2010, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

I think one needs a pot before one can set about stewing anything - sure, many are the ideas that floated around - but they needed a pot before they could be stewed - they needed an anchor in reality if they were to be of any benefit - pie in the sky ideas are great - but to 'walk' these ideas needed a strong dose of clay....

A pinch of Hellenism with a scoop of Jewish midrash mixed together in a Roman pot, slowly brought to a boil...

:lol:

Toto · 02-02-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

...
Maybe I agree with Hoffman – but I’d love to know what his arguments are.

He's written a few books and articles on Marcion. (He did his PhD thesis on Marcion.) I'm not sure what is online - I'll check later.

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02-02-2010, 01:02 AM	#42
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Now, just for fun, whose god do Christians actually worship? The Jewish God or Marcion's?

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