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sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 12:46 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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the roots of the agape is go back to the time of the Exodus.

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They do?

That's my contention obviously.

It was.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 12:49 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

I am not sure how to take these words. I have read it argued that the heretics spoke evil of Moses, but this doesn't make sense to me. Just looking at it, it just makes reference to the heretics exaggerated sense of importance. All they know about is corruption.

The author is pointing out a mindless arrogance of these interlopers, who evidently boasted as well as committing offences.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 12:49 PM

Perhaps I can do a better job summarizing that last section. The devil argued that Moses's body was his because it was material and he murdered a man. The heretics argued theoretically that Michael argued on his behalf and rebuked him owing to his flesh having been changed (v. 7 = "strange flesh") and the brother-making rite cleansed him of old sins. In other words, Jude is citing the claims of the heretics. In their agape, they claim to overcome the devil (see the various reports of the Marcionite redemption with its purchase of the body of the believer from the devil or some such figure).

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 12:52 PM

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11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

This material is cited in the Letter to Theodore and it is generally used against heretics who are associated with perverting the agape with homosexuality again. It is just a recapitulation of the same themes as above. Nothing new.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 12:52 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Perhaps I can do a better job summarizing that last section. The devil argued that Moses's body was his because it was material and he murdered a man. The heretics argued theoretically that Michael argued on his behalf and rebuked him owing to his flesh having been changed (v. 7 = "strange flesh") and the brother-making rite cleansed him of old sins. In other words, Jude is citing the claims of the heretics.

The Moses connexion is only in passing. The material point is that even an archangel had respect for the power and authority of Satan, and did not use his own authority to rebuke him. Yet these preposterous, wicked, hypocritical mortals thought they could do so.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 12:55 PM

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14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

In the Letter to Theodore the alleged 'gay heretics' claim to 'be free' but are again argued to have made themselves slaves to their passions. Jude's point is to argue that the agape does not make them free from the law, that God will come and judge them at the end of time.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 12:57 PM

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The material point is that even an archangel had respect for the power and authority of Satan, and did not use his own authority to rebuke him.

Right, but the transition from the context of the corrupting of the agape means it must have some relation to things the heretics were saying or doing. Look at what follows. The author makes an immediate transition to the behavior of said heretics and it is odd because it is Jude who drops the apocryphal material suddenly out of the blue. Why bring something like the tradition that Michael and Satan fought over Moses body which couldn't have been widely known to contemporaries? It must be the heretics were using this material and what it said about the person of Moses. Why else bring it up?

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 12:58 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

This material is cited in the Letter to Theodore and it is generally used against heretics who are associated with perverting the agape

Again, the agape has no particular sanctity of its own. There's no excuse for control-freak Catholic ideas here. It was the sanctity of the human relationship that mattered. Hence the mention of 'hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh'.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 12:59 PM

Why is Moses exempt from the Devil if Jesus hasn't appeared yet to save him? Remember that Jesus goes under the earth to redeem the Patriarchs. Not Moses. Why? Because he has been already saved through the rite which Jesus established to save Christians

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 01:03 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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The material point is that even an archangel had respect for the power and authority of Satan, and did not use his own authority to rebuke him.

Right, but the transition from the context of the corrupting of the agape

That's not the context, as a schoolchild can tell you. Let's avoid circularity.

This looks increasingly like

political propaganda.

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means it must have some relation to things the heretics were saying or doing. Look at what follows. The author makes an immediate transition to the behavior of said heretics and it is odd because it is Jude who drops the apocryphal material suddenly out of the blue. Why bring something like the tradition that Michael and Satan fought over Moses body which couldn't have been widely known to contemporaries?

Of course it was known.

Sometimes discussions become

absurd.

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05-14-2012, 12:49 PM	#83
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Perhaps I can do a better job summarizing that last section. The devil argued that Moses's body was his because it was material and he murdered a man. The heretics argued theoretically that Michael argued on his behalf and rebuked him owing to his flesh having been changed (v. 7 = "strange flesh") and the brother-making rite cleansed him of old sins. In other words, Jude is citing the claims of the heretics. In their agape, they claim to overcome the devil (see the various reports of the Marcionite redemption with its purchase of the body of the believer from the devil or some such figure).

05-14-2012, 12:59 PM	#89
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Why is Moses exempt from the Devil if Jesus hasn't appeared yet to save him? Remember that Jesus goes under the earth to redeem the Patriarchs. Not Moses. Why? Because he has been already saved through the rite which Jesus established to save Christians

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