Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 10-28-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Johanines
1 John contains this passage :
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word (Logos) of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete."
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Some believers assert this is a claim to have met Jesus.
What did he see and hear? He certainly never says it was Jesus. He just had a spiritual experience and wants to tell everyone about it - "God is light". Nothing here about any historical Jesus at all.

K.

Quote:

1 John 4 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Hi K..

Yes, I agree with your asssessment of 1 John It is often put forward confidently by those who wish to see a historical Jesus.
There is another passage in the epistle that concerns Jesus coming in the flesh. Let's examine both.

This is not an eyewitness account. It is significantly about the Logos(Word). They have heard it through the utterances of "spirits". They have handled it through through the Eucharist. It was manifested (made known) through preaching (the Word, the Logos) and seen with the spiritual eye the eternal life. The message they have heard of him (verse 5) is not the preaching of a man, but a message from the spirits (through "prophets"), that God is light and that is seen with the spiritual eye.

Now come other alleged spirits, speaking through men. They say that Jesus is not come in the flesh, i.e. he has not spoken through men. It is quite amusing that ecstatic utterances of "spirits" speaking through erstwhile prophets is put forward as the "proof" of "Jesus in the flesh."

That Jesus has come in the flesh means only that he has entered into the earthly human sphere. This is a mythological transformation (A. von Harnack, Lehrbuch der Dogmengeschite, Tubingen, 1931, page 211).

Jake

Kapyong · 10-28-2011, 02:01 PM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Putting aside a priori theology that Christ is God on the one hand, or on the other hand historical method that proceeds as if supernatural events cannot happen,

http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Common

Supernatural events can happen?
That's why people are laughing at your preaching.

K.

Sheshbazzar · 10-28-2011, 06:20 PM

http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Common

:hysterical:

Ever notice that the greater the volume of apologetics would-be theologians produce, the more self-important pompous dicks they become?

arnoldo · 10-28-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday, . . .

G.John
According to tradition this Gospel was written by the apostle John, and the last chapter says :
"This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true."

This is part of a chapter that was added to the Gospels, and it is clearly someone else making a claim for the book. It most certainly does not even come close to specific claim that anyone personally met Jesus. . .

Buenos Dias. . . While browsing through some books concerning G. John I was surprised to learn that this Gospel may have had various authors. In, The Christology of the Fourth Gospel: Its Unity and Disunity in the Light of John 6, (or via: amazon.co.uk) Paul N. Anderson writes that a disciple of John, not John himself, wrote the gospel attributed to him. For those interested, Anderson's book is available for preview on google books and the above mentioned point is on pg.38 . . . Porphyry also made an interesting comment concerning the historicity, or lack thereof, of this particular eye witness account attributed to John.

Quote:

Porphyry, Against the Christians
It will be proved from another passage that the accounts of his death were all a matter of guess-work. For John writes : "But when they came to Jesus, when they saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs; but one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." For only John has said this, and none of the others. Wherefore he is desirous of bearing witness to himself when he says: "And he that saw it hath borne witness, and his witness is true" (v. 35). This is haply, as it seems to me, the statement of a simpleton. For how is the witness true when its object has no existence? For a man witnesses to something real; but how can witness be spoken of concerning a thing which is not real?
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/po..._fragments.htm

arnoldo · 10-28-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Again Adam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

'After the voice from heaven glorifying Jebus....' yeah, riiight.
Do you really and truly believe that line of horse-crap Adam ?

Adam. Do you really and truly believe that there really was a 'voice from heaven glorifying Jebus..' saying;

"I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him."(John 12:28-29) ?

This is a significant question in this context, as your further arguments concerning your Nicodemus figure (now unfortunately missing from this thread- destroying the context) are based upon some alleged change in the Nicodemus' views which you are evidently attempting to posit came about via means of the reality of this particular supernatural event having actually taken place just as it is reported in John 12:28-29.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

(3)After the voice from heaven glorifying Jesus as of John 12:28, Nicodemus recorded the full theology of Jesus from a believer’s point of view. He must have been a Christian at that time, at least, to be present at the Last Supper to record the Farewell discourse, John 14-17.
It follows necessarily from the foregoing analysis of Nicodemus’s changing perspective,....

It must be established with all certainty what your personal beliefs are with regards to the actuality of this alleged miraculous voice from heaven, to assess the credibility of your further arguments vis. Nicodemus's' alleged 'changing perspective'.
As your rationale as presented seems to hinge upon this miraculous voice from heaven being the impetus behind this alleged 'changing perspective'.
Do tell us more about this 'voice speaking from heaven'.

.

It's not impossible that it happened.

Sheshbazzar · 10-28-2011, 06:55 PM

Really arnoldo? Been hearing voices from heaven? Care to tell us all about your experience?

I do have a few observations to make regarding this 'voice'. But I'll gladly allow you to make your case, and present your personal experiences first.

aChristian · 10-28-2011, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Really arnoldo? Been hearing voices from heaven? Care to tell us all about your experience?

I do have a few observations to make regarding this 'voice'. But I'll gladly allow you to make your case, and present your personal experiences first.

Your comment makes no sense. I don't recall reading arnoldo or Adam saying that everyone hears voices from heaven all the time. It seems that they were saying it was a miracle that doesn't happen every day. To ask arnoldo about the voices from heaven that he has heard is kind of dumb.

Adam · 10-28-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Buenos Dias. . . While browsing through some books concerning G. John I was surprised to learn that this Gospel may have had various authors. In, The Christology of the Fourth Gospel: Its Unity and Disunity in the Light of John 6, (or via: amazon.co.uk) Paul N. Anderson writes that a disciple of John, not John himself, wrote the gospel attributed to him. For those interested, Anderson's book is available for preview on google books and the above mentioned point is on pg.38 . . . Porphyry also made an interesting comment concerning the historicity, or lack thereof, of this particular eye witness account attributed to John.

Yes, that's what I am developing over on my 2nd thread, Significance of John. In my Posts #2 and #13 I show Nicodemus as the author of the Discourses. Still to come are Andrew as the source for the Signs Gospel and John the Apostle as the major Editor.
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=307897

aChristian · 10-28-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Really arnoldo? Been hearing voices from heaven? Care to tell us all about your experience?

I do have a few observations to make regarding this 'voice'. But I'll gladly allow you to make your case, and present your personal experiences first.

Your comment makes no sense. I don't recall reading arnoldo or Adam saying that everyone hears voices from heaven all the time. It seems that they were saying it was a miracle that doesn't happen every day. To ask arnoldo about the voices from heaven that he has heard is kind of dumb.

I'll back up a little. If the question is honest, it is not dumb. Since some people do miraculously hear audible voices, you could be asking if he has had a personal experience of hearing an audible voice from God. He probably hasn't since it doesn't happen very often, but it could have since other sensible people have had the experience. I don't want to further derail the thread, but there are many credible accounts of miraculous events and to deny that is to stick your head in the sand

Kapyong · 10-28-2011, 09:35 PM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

but there are many credible accounts of miraculous events and to deny that is to stick your head in the sand

Nope - there are no credible accounts of miracles.
Which is why you can't cite any.

K.

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10-28-2011, 06:20 PM	#213
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Common :hysterical: Ever notice that the greater the volume of apologetics would-be theologians produce, the more self-important pompous dicks they become?

10-28-2011, 06:55 PM	#216
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Really arnoldo? Been hearing voices from heaven? Care to tell us all about your experience? I do have a few observations to make regarding this 'voice'. But I'll gladly allow you to make your case, and present your personal experiences first.

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