show_no_mercy

Again, you seem to be purposefully ignoring the metaphor. Israel is the servant, the Jews are fucking it up. That is the theme of this section of Deutero-Isaiah, and is the theme of the entire Torah.

If I said that America is going down the drain for our mistakes, would you then conclude that "America" is some person?

Johnny Skeptic

And you should not have any trouble discussing Isaiah 53 with Jews at 800-477-6631. If you do contact the Jews, please let us know if you are able to convince them that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Perhaps it would help if you ask one of them to make some posts in this thread.

bacht

dude, have you studied anything about ANE texts and ideas? Are you basing all your interpretation on English translations? Have you discussed any of this with knowledgable Jews? (and don't bother with "putting on the mind of Christ" or somesuch, there are other places to bleat about that sort of thing)

spamandham

I'm not convinced Jesus is an anti-king figure at all. If anything, the gospels promote compliance with Rome, so much so, that some have gone as far as to speculate that Rome itself constructed the gospel story.

spamandham

The kingdom of heaven refers to an internal state of being - enlightenment if you will, not a political movement. Where are you even getting that idea from?

Elijah

His compliance with Rome is how you have to be if you want to spread your message without the threat of Rome snuffing you out before you even get going.

If it’s not an anti king, what are they portraying in the gospels?
I’m getting the idea from the options available that make sense and the fact that most religious movements have political intentions not just pushing philosophy for philosophy’s sake. Where are you getting the idea that it’s an internal state and nothing else?

Enlightenment about what? And what would be the expected outcome of an enlightened people? Same ol shit and slavery or would the enlightenment of the people create a new kind of world order?

bacht

Or, more literally, the New Age after the Day of the Lord, a new heaven and earth without death - technically we're still waiting for this, it's just been postponed indefinitely...

Elijah

Isn't death supposed to be defeated after the rulers are cast out? Or are you taking the rulers to be something purely supernatural with no real world counterparts?

bacht

There are no supernatural phenomena, and death is as inevitable as ever imo. But you asked what the Kingdom of Heaven meant to primitive Christians. The Zealots wanted to fight their way to the new age, while Christians apparently just waited. Instead of a New Jerusalem they got the Catholic church :huh:

Elijah

It wasn't that they waited. They were promoting a spiritual king. Do you see the political ramifications of that in a world of earthly kings ruling over mankind?

What I was asking though was; wasn't a removal of the rulers expected before a return from our fallen state to eternal life?