Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DietCoke · 05-24-2007, 09:21 PM

fish. It just seemed like an oversight that fish didn't die in the flood.

TomboyMom · 05-24-2007, 09:36 PM

I'm with Roland. "But the women who have not slept with a man you may take for yourselves. It's so completely cynical and evil; there's no possible justification for it, which doesn't stop apologists from trying.

spamandham · 05-24-2007, 10:52 PM

I remember reading somewhere in the OT about how god hates temple prostitutes or something like that. I remember thinking "huh? I thought god loves eveyone"

Roland · 05-24-2007, 11:09 PM

How about the cattle in the 10 plagues story that keep dying and coming back to life again so they can suffer yet another God-ordained indignity? :huh:

That's a howler.

OneInFundieville · 05-24-2007, 11:31 PM

I read 1 Samuel today. Here was my favorite for the day...

I mean, where does one even start... :huh:

1 Samuel 18

Saul's Jealousy of David

1 After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. 2 From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house. 3 And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. 4 Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.
5 Whatever Saul sent him to do, David did it so successfully [a] that Saul gave him a high rank in the army. This pleased all the people, and Saul's officers as well.

6 When the men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and with tambourines and lutes. 7 As they danced, they sang:
"Saul has slain his thousands,
and David his tens of thousands."

8 Saul was very angry; this refrain galled him. "They have credited David with tens of thousands," he thought, "but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?" 9 And from that time on Saul kept a jealous eye on David.

10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand 11 and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice.

12 Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with David but had left Saul. 13 So he sent David away from him and gave him command over a thousand men, and David led the troops in their campaigns. 14 In everything he did he had great success, because the LORD was with him. 15 When Saul saw how successful he was, he was afraid of him. 16 But all Israel and Judah loved David, because he led them in their campaigns.

17 Saul said to David, "Here is my older daughter Merab. I will give her to you in marriage; only serve me bravely and fight the battles of the LORD." For Saul said to himself, "I will not raise a hand against him. Let the Philistines do that!"

18 But David said to Saul, "Who am I, and what is my family or my father's clan in Israel, that I should become the king's son-in-law?" 19 So when the time came for Merab, Saul's daughter, to be given to David, she was given in marriage to Adriel of Meholah.

20 Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 21 "I will give her to him," he thought, "so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." So Saul said to David, "Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law."

22 Then Saul ordered his attendants: "Speak to David privately and say, 'Look, the king is pleased with you, and his attendants all like you; now become his son-in-law.' "

23 They repeated these words to David. But David said, "Do you think it is a small matter to become the king's son-in-law? I'm only a poor man and little known."

24 When Saul's servants told him what David had said, 25 Saul replied, "Say to David, 'The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.' " Saul's plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.

26 When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king's son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed, 27 David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

28 When Saul realized that the LORD was with David and that his daughter Michal loved David, 29 Saul became still more afraid of him, and he remained his enemy the rest of his days.

30 The Philistine commanders continued to go out to battle, and as often as they did, David met with more success than the rest of Saul's officers, and his name became well known.

Equinox · 05-25-2007, 06:26 AM

Too many to list, but perhaps the biggest for me was realizing that in the story of the exodus, which everyone knows and no one denies, God kills thousands of innocent children (the firstborn sons) to make a political point – even after saying that he’s “hardened pharaoh’s heart” so that God will be able to do this mass child murder, just so God can make himself look powerful. It killing thousands of innocent children to make a political point isn’t terrorism, then what is? The kicker is that this is not some obscure story, but rather is a story that nearly all Christians know and even teach in Sunday school. (the sacrifice Isaac story is like that too).

The biggest WTF hidden story for me was 2Kng chap 10, where God has his anointed one have 70 children slaughtered, their head hacked off, and put in baskets for display. God then says “well done good and faithful servant for carrying out all I had planned!” in 2Kng 10:30. I’ve mentioned this one to atheist friends of mine, and even they didn’t believe the “God loves a basketful of 70 severed kid heads!” story until I showed them where it was.

Hey, it would be good to have a list of these. Is there a nice list of these somewhere? Some wiki or such? What about on errancy wiki? Maybe "top 50 atrocities ordered by God" or "top 50 examples of God's moral depravity"? Maybe we should make one if there isn't already one? The skeptics annotated bible has lists of atrocities and such, but a ranked list, with the worst ones on top, would be much more useful, since in discussion (with a fundy) we only have time for about 6 or so before everyone tires of the discussion, and it would be better to use 6 of the best instead of 6 random ones.

Too many others to list. Great thread-

-Equinox

GakuseiDon · 05-25-2007, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Equinox

Too many to list, but perhaps the biggest for me was realizing that in the story of the exodus, which everyone knows and no one denies, God kills thousands of innocent children

Yes, but at least all the guilty children were killed -- those bastards!

NZSkep · 05-25-2007, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Equinox

Too many to list, but perhaps the biggest for me was realizing that in the story of the exodus, which everyone knows and no one denies, God kills thousands of innocent children (the firstborn sons) to make a political point – even after saying that he’s “hardened pharaoh’s heart” so that God will be able to do this mass child murder, just so God can make himself look powerful. It killing thousands of innocent children to make a political point isn’t terrorism, then what is? The kicker is that this is not some obscure story, but rather is a story that nearly all Christians know and even teach in Sunday school. (the sacrifice Isaac story is like that too).

The biggest WTF hidden story for me was 2Kng chap 10, where God has his anointed one have 70 children slaughtered, their head hacked off, and put in baskets for display. God then says “well done good and faithful servant for carrying out all I had planned!” in 2Kng 10:30. I’ve mentioned this one to atheist friends of mine, and even they didn’t believe the “God loves a basketful of 70 severed kid heads!” story until I showed them where it was.

Hey, it would be good to have a list of these. Is there a nice list of these somewhere? Some wiki or such? What about on errancy wiki? Maybe "top 50 atrocities ordered by God" or "top 50 examples of God's moral depravity"? Maybe we should make one if there isn't already one? The skeptics annotated bible has lists of atrocities and such, but a ranked list, with the worst ones on top, would be much more useful, since in discussion (with a fundy) we only have time for about 6 or so before everyone tires of the discussion, and it would be better to use 6 of the best instead of 6 random ones.

Too many others to list. Great thread-

-Equinox

I belive www.godhatesfags.com has a pretty extensive list of gods killings - they estimate it happens over 100 time sin the bible and deaths numbers into the billions

try here (PDF) http://www.godhatesfags.com/writings...eryone-lie.pdf
or
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/hatred.html

Lugubert · 05-25-2007, 09:24 AM

I swallowed the creation stories as metaphors. I read the Bible from cover to cover. Didn't help. Already several years before I managed to read the fables in a slightly non-biased way, though, I was surprised and annoyed that Judas was and is condemned. The way the story goes, he was the one who made the big Sacrifice possible. (And I didn't even really question the Resurrection!)So, he should instead be regarded as the supreme benefactor of humanity.

Betelnut · 05-25-2007, 06:06 PM

Like a lot of you, there are almost too many WTF moments to mention, but here are a few of my favorites:

Genesis as a whole. Two creation stories. Eve being blamed for "disobeying" god when she didn't even exist when god said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Noah and the flood--soooo ludicrous.

Stoning laws--work on Sabbath: dead; trim your beard: dead; witch?: dead (and so on.)

The story of Moses and the exodus. God "hardens" the Pharoah's heart. So God is working at cross purposes with Moses (?)

A big kicker:

The (second) salvation of humankind is based upon human sacrifice (Jesus "died" for our sin).

Also, God has to kill himself to save us from a fate that God condemned us to in the first place. God kills himself to save us from him. Very odd...

So many more, so many more...

Oops forgot to add this image:

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05-24-2007, 09:21 PM	#81
DietCoke Regular Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: 372 miles north of Eugene, OR Posts: 196	fish. It just seemed like an oversight that fish didn't die in the flood.

05-24-2007, 09:36 PM	#82
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	I'm with Roland. "But the women who have not slept with a man you may take for yourselves. It's so completely cynical and evil; there's no possible justification for it, which doesn't stop apologists from trying.

05-24-2007, 10:52 PM	#83
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I remember reading somewhere in the OT about how god hates temple prostitutes or something like that. I remember thinking "huh? I thought god loves eveyone"

05-24-2007, 11:09 PM	#84
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	How about the cattle in the 10 plagues story that keep dying and coming back to life again so they can suffer yet another God-ordained indignity? :huh: That's a howler.

05-24-2007, 11:31 PM	#85
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	I read 1 Samuel today. Here was my favorite for the day... I mean, where does one even start... :huh: 1 Samuel 18 Saul's Jealousy of David 1 After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. 2 From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house. 3 And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. 4 Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt. 5 Whatever Saul sent him to do, David did it so successfully [a] that Saul gave him a high rank in the army. This pleased all the people, and Saul's officers as well. 6 When the men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and with tambourines and lutes. 7 As they danced, they sang: "Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands." 8 Saul was very angry; this refrain galled him. "They have credited David with tens of thousands," he thought, "but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?" 9 And from that time on Saul kept a jealous eye on David. 10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand 11 and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice. 12 Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with David but had left Saul. 13 So he sent David away from him and gave him command over a thousand men, and David led the troops in their campaigns. 14 In everything he did he had great success, because the LORD was with him. 15 When Saul saw how successful he was, he was afraid of him. 16 But all Israel and Judah loved David, because he led them in their campaigns. 17 Saul said to David, "Here is my older daughter Merab. I will give her to you in marriage; only serve me bravely and fight the battles of the LORD." For Saul said to himself, "I will not raise a hand against him. Let the Philistines do that!" 18 But David said to Saul, "Who am I, and what is my family or my father's clan in Israel, that I should become the king's son-in-law?" 19 So when the time came for Merab, Saul's daughter, to be given to David, she was given in marriage to Adriel of Meholah. 20 Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 21 "I will give her to him," he thought, "so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." So Saul said to David, "Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law." 22 Then Saul ordered his attendants: "Speak to David privately and say, 'Look, the king is pleased with you, and his attendants all like you; now become his son-in-law.' " 23 They repeated these words to David. But David said, "Do you think it is a small matter to become the king's son-in-law? I'm only a poor man and little known." 24 When Saul's servants told him what David had said, 25 Saul replied, "Say to David, 'The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.' " Saul's plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines. 26 When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king's son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed, 27 David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage. 28 When Saul realized that the LORD was with David and that his daughter Michal loved David, 29 Saul became still more afraid of him, and he remained his enemy the rest of his days. 30 The Philistine commanders continued to go out to battle, and as often as they did, David met with more success than the rest of Saul's officers, and his name became well known.

05-25-2007, 06:26 AM	#86
Equinox Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 897	Too many to list, but perhaps the biggest for me was realizing that in the story of the exodus, which everyone knows and no one denies, God kills thousands of innocent children (the firstborn sons) to make a political point – even after saying that he’s “hardened pharaoh’s heart” so that God will be able to do this mass child murder, just so God can make himself look powerful. It killing thousands of innocent children to make a political point isn’t terrorism, then what is? The kicker is that this is not some obscure story, but rather is a story that nearly all Christians know and even teach in Sunday school. (the sacrifice Isaac story is like that too). The biggest WTF hidden story for me was 2Kng chap 10, where God has his anointed one have 70 children slaughtered, their head hacked off, and put in baskets for display. God then says “well done good and faithful servant for carrying out all I had planned!” in 2Kng 10:30. I’ve mentioned this one to atheist friends of mine, and even they didn’t believe the “God loves a basketful of 70 severed kid heads!” story until I showed them where it was. Hey, it would be good to have a list of these. Is there a nice list of these somewhere? Some wiki or such? What about on errancy wiki? Maybe "top 50 atrocities ordered by God" or "top 50 examples of God's moral depravity"? Maybe we should make one if there isn't already one? The skeptics annotated bible has lists of atrocities and such, but a ranked list, with the worst ones on top, would be much more useful, since in discussion (with a fundy) we only have time for about 6 or so before everyone tires of the discussion, and it would be better to use 6 of the best instead of 6 random ones. Too many others to list. Great thread- -Equinox

05-25-2007, 09:24 AM	#89
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	I swallowed the creation stories as metaphors. I read the Bible from cover to cover. Didn't help. Already several years before I managed to read the fables in a slightly non-biased way, though, I was surprised and annoyed that Judas was and is condemned. The way the story goes, he was the one who made the big Sacrifice possible. (And I didn't even really question the Resurrection!)So, he should instead be regarded as the supreme benefactor of humanity.

05-25-2007, 06:06 PM	#90
Betelnut Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 177	Like a lot of you, there are almost too many WTF moments to mention, but here are a few of my favorites: Genesis as a whole. Two creation stories. Eve being blamed for "disobeying" god when she didn't even exist when god said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Noah and the flood--soooo ludicrous. Stoning laws--work on Sabbath: dead; trim your beard: dead; witch?: dead (and so on.) The story of Moses and the exodus. God "hardens" the Pharoah's heart. So God is working at cross purposes with Moses (?) A big kicker: The (second) salvation of humankind is based upon human sacrifice (Jesus "died" for our sin). Also, God has to kill himself to save us from a fate that God condemned us to in the first place. God kills himself to save us from him. Very odd... So many more, so many more... Oops forgot to add this image:

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