dr lazer blast

strawman. They do not have to be synonymous, like I said, it is more akin to an oxymoron. 2 words that describe an event, like a love hate relationship. Now please refute that without a logical fallacy.

Keep in mind that repeating over and over again that they need to by synonymous without any evidence to back it up is not logical, also keep in mind that you must disprove the fact that my interpretation could in fact be akin to an oxymoron.

Once again, you are back to square 1

aChristian

I thought sschlichter's was pretty good and here are a few others. I hope it helps.

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/harmony.html

(I thought this one was good at harmonizing some of the details.)
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentar...i?section=T0-8

http://davidsonpress.com/harmony.htm

Sheshbazzar

Actually, due to a very poor dial-up server, quite a bit more of what I wrote did not make it through.
I admit that I've been having a bit of fun these last few posts, and hardly been able to wipe off that big grin that has been on my face all day

Oh my joy is genuine alright, as the dark clouds of close to 60 years of Doom and Gloom theological indoctrination have finally been blown away.
Now, at last I walk in the sunshine, and I shout and laugh every day, embracing and delighting in the REAL world, and making real friends (rather than just associations with religious cronies of a similar bent) No more of that stupid old superstitious bronze-age demon/boogyman, God is gonna burn you in hell posturing; Let 'em have their hell that love dwelling on it.

Yes, my JOY quite often becomes a "maniacal joy" as it is so very difficult to convey that great relief, that freedom from fear, and that embracement of the reality that is this great, wonderful, and wide universe, while at the same time that joy is yet troubled and tempered by a measure of knowledge, and of comprehension of all the totally needless human suffering that has went, and yet is going on, and how the minds of so many are doomed to remain enslaved to religious and political lies and manipulations till the day they are finally laid into the ground.

I find the theists and religious apologists that post in these forums to be sad, pathetic figures, whose minds have been stolen from them, having been such long time victims of their captors who have preyed upon their minds and manipulated them into identifying with, and even siding with those who have kidnapped their lives.
A thousand posts ago, I myself was very similar in my convictions and arguments to poor pathetic dr lazer here. I argued my religious convictions with fervor and with equal tenacity, witnessing and preaching as much as I could get away with, fully convinced that the Bible just could not be wrong.
But staying around, I read, and I learned, tens of thousands of things that I had never before heard or considered, until that day came that I just could not any longer hide from my conscience, the plain fact that I had been duped, suckered, and robbed for most of my life by those whom I had trusted the most. Coming to convert others, I became the one converted.

The honest and dedicated men and women of this board had bared with me, with strong "tough love" not taking any of my crap, yet reasoning, explaining, and pointing the way.
It is a debt of gratitude that I owe to IIDB, that I can never fully repay, that lays upon me a responsibility to so help others that keeps me active here, doing my duty for my fellow man, "giving crap" to others, like unto me, who are ever yet coming in.
Sometimes, in long discussions and wranglings about Bible texts, the human factor gets forgotten, we are not here only to win arguments, the real reason for this site is to support one another, and to help those arriving who do not even know that they need our help.

Now we return you to our regularly scheduled wrangling.

Amaleq13

Whether you insist that an "oxymoron" makes both accounts state that they had fear and joy or you recognize that it requires amazement and joy to be synonymous does not change the fact that it is a false claim. The accounts do not both state they had fear and joy.

None of which is actually relevant to the identified implausibility you have yet to correct (or, I suspect, even properly understand).

Sheshbazzar

But by the way sschlicter,
Thanks for the link. Please read post #398

sschlichter

I know there is not much precedent but it seems like a natural reaction to the resurrection of a friend. (ie joy in hope and contradictory disbelief).

The disbelief continues way beyond this:

Luk 24:11 But these words seemed like pure nonsense to them, and they did not believe them.

Mar 16:11 And when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

Mar 16:13 They went back and told the rest, but they did not beleive him

Luk 24:38 Then he said to them, "Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe."

Mar 16:14 Then he appeared to the eleven themselves,while they were eating, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen him resurrected.

Mat 28:17 When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted.

I would only imagine that any hope of joy would be tempered and contradicted with disbelief. Why would you expect anything besides varying degrees of joy in hope and disbelief.

I can also think of other various plausible reasons why she would say the body was taken. How about the possibility that she was actually joyfully hoping it to be true but was afraid that she was going to look stupid by claiming that Jesus rose from the dead (again, I imagine that this is a likely reaction but we have littel precedent for the raising of the dead)), So, she tells Peter something more plausible (out of fear of looking gullible and stupid) so he will investigate.

I am sure there are other plausible possibilities.

~Steve

sschlichter

before we return, what christian indoctrination over 60 years did you find to be the most doomy and gloomy? please given me some examples.

~Steve

aChristian

It's really obvious. They remained at Jerusalem except for the trip they made up to Galilee.

Doug Shaver

Acts 1:3-12 and I Cor. 15:3-8.

Sheshbazzar

Have a little free time on my hands, so thought I'd bring up a few more of those details that I'd had to leave out for the sake of brevity and clarity in post #398.
In this post, therefore I'll address this same subject from another angle drawing from the narrative of St. John.

Retracing our steps, we are reminded of Luke's ending;
and of Matthew's ending;

(A couple of points, the text provided in sschlichter's link proved difficult to work with, "copy and paste" bringing over large multiple blocks of texts, so some quotations are being provided from other sources, Secondly the name of the central character has been replaced by an "X" for several
reasons, the simple and primary one being that the popular name now commonly employed is not original to the texts.)

Looking at the Gospel of John we have this account;
Isn't it a little strange that after being personally visited by the risen X, and being thoroughly convinced of his resurrection (ONE time in Luke's version, on the evening following his resurrection, and TWICE in John's version, on the evening of his resurrection, and AGAIN "eight days latter") even to the point of "handling" him and watching him eat, that in Matthew's version, on that mountain "they worshipped him but some doubted"?

We are told by the other accounts that their doubts had been fully allayed on the evening of his resurrection, (or in John "eight days latter") but Matthew still has "doubting Thomas's" among them upon their arrival at that mountain in Galilee.
John 21:1-25 goes on to add a lot of additional fish tales about events that supposedly took place in Galilee and on the shores and waters of Sea of Tiberius.
OF course it seems to bother no believer, that they had been expressly commanded to remain in the city of Jerusalem until they recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit, which The Acts of the Apostles tells us came upon them on the Day of Pentecost, and in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5-13)
John's narrative seems to want us to believe that they recieved The HS upon the evening of the resurrection (v.22) This however, would contradict their future conduct as it is related in the rest of his narrative, men filled with the "Holy Spirit" and its unshakable conviction, would not have retained the "doubts" as are related in Matthew, nor conducted themselves in the manner related in the 20th-21st chapter of John.

In short, I believe the internal evidence indicates that Matthew's 28th chapter, and John's 20th & 21st chapters are forgeries added to the original texts at a latter date. Actually, removing these latter supplied denouements makes the endings far more dramatic, and thought provoking.

To me it is quite evident that some ignorant early redactors simply could not leave a good story alone, but felt compelled to provide an ending and additional details that would answer all the unanswered questions, and also give support to their theological convictions and "up" their authority claims.
They got away with it, but at the expense of credibility and of integrity.