OnTheThirdRail

Ok... i'll bite... the uniformity of nature... what evidence do you have?

We'll come back to this...

jdlongmire

I'm still here...just spending most of my time in the thread about homosexuality out of respect to maddog.

quick analogyish thingee before I go to bed...

I am a king, I have 2 subjects that have disobeyed me. I pardon one and punish the other. Is that unjust? or within my right as sovereign? did I cause them to disobey?

g'night!

BadBadBad

First, your analogy is missing predestination. Change all your verbs to future tense. You predestine one to be pardoned. You've created the world and mankind in it such that you know, before he is born, that the second one will be punished unless you pardon him before he his born. You choose only one. Then you harden the heart of the second making him impervious to any hope of redemption in your eyes. Yet you say his destiny is not set by God. Cause? I don't know, but his destiny is definitely set by God else, he has the power to change it.

Blt_to_go probably said it better:

Second, is it just? Is it just to create a man and then set his destiny as eternal punishment for actions you ensure he will commit? No, I don't think it's just.

Third, I still want to back that ice cream truck up to the Garden of Eden to hear an explanation of how all of God's predestination business fell apart in the first place.

Yahzi

Yes.

Since you seem to think this is a difficult question, ask yourself this: how would you feel if you ere the one punished? Not too good, I imagine. Now, isn't the fundamental law of morality the "Golden Rule?" Aren't you supposed to do to others as you would have done to you? If you were King, would you want the king to pardon the other guy and punish you? No? Then why would you do it to him?

Why is it you are unable to apply the Golden Rule on your own? Why did you not think about your example long enough to see the obvious answer?

BadBadBad

It wasn't obvious to me. That's a very good response.

:notworthy

Jack the Bodiless

Are you presenting this as a dichotomy?

The answer to both questions is yes. It is within your right as a sovereign, but it is also unjust.

Are you assuming that "sovereignty" implies the ability to redefine the meaning of the word "unjust", or the very concept of "justice"?

blt to go

What is it about my ice cream analogy that scares you SO MUCH that you ignore it and create a new analogy?
Absolutely, positively dead balls-on, brettc.

See, if this thread was about kings, or justice or sovereignty, I would be more than happy to use this analogy and go forward. This thread is not. It is is solely and simply about double predestination. And this analogy (by reviewing actions in the past (as pointed out by brettc)) has nothing whatsoever to do with predestination. We should stay on point.

Now, if one would like to address the issue about double predestination please do so.

And if, for some reason, there is offense found in using the ice cream analogy, I would freely encourage you to make one up on your own. Be sure to include the following:

1. A Creator
2. That creates the capability to do evil
3. That has pre-knowledge that ALL will do evil
4. That creates anyway
5. That knows ALL will be doomed to hell for doing evil.
6. That knows there is no chance for salvation short of the intervention of the creator.
7. That knows humanity will not desire god unless god puts that desire in them.
8. That desires ALL to be saved (VERY important point, often missed)
9. That pre-selects those who will be saved. (And therein creates double predestination)
10. That then provides only the means to save those pre-selected (Limited Atonement).

Again, again, and again. If I am not one of the pre-selected, what possible chance do I have for Heaven. NONE! And you are telling me that your "sovereign" god WANTS to save me, but can't?

jdlongmire

Quick 'un...I am spending far too much time at work and with my family!

1. don't forget free will in the Garden

2. God justly could have ERADICATED mankind from existance from the first disobedience.

3. and the presumption that we can/cannot fully understand God's will and that your salvation is determined by the degree in which you can accept God's will on faith.

4. God is Sovereign and He adopts us. Speaking of adoption, either of you guys adopted or adopters?

blt to go

Hey, brettc, do I win the prize? And it only took two pages to get there! Wrong, wrong, wrong, and couldn't be more wrong! The word "justly" is the Achilles heel that makes such a statement---well, just wrong.

"Just," if you will recall, simply means to act according to the Law. The question would be: Whose Law? Let's say, for fun, its God's Law.

God's Law, according to Eph 1:4 says that before he made the world he elected certain individuals to be saved. HE set up that law before A&E. So, if he "eradicated mankind from the first disobedience" then he would have not elected anyone, and hence would have violated his own law. Not even "God's justice" is going to save that statement.

Remember, he set up the rules, knowing A&E were going to disobey.

Question, jdlongmire. Can God elect someone and then change his mind? And would that be justice, or a violation of his law? And if God can elect and change his mind, what good are the books of Romans and Ephesians? Would they be profitable for doctrine and for instruction in righteousness? (2 Tim 3:16)

BadBadBad

You know longmire, I lived my life pretty much apathetic to religion until I was about 40 years old, about 2-3 years ago. I sat down and typed in atheism into a Google search one day to try and understand some personal problems my family was having with religion. I spent about six months being absolutely and utterly amazed, and really I can't even come up with the words to describe, the corruption and stupidity I found in Christianity .

Since that initial overwhelming revelation of what Christianity really is and what it really stands for, I've had two extended conversations with you. One where you tried to justify the butchering of men, women and children in the face of the reality of those acts I showed you through the genocide of 500,000 men, women, and children in Rwanda in 1994. Now this conversation on the crux of Christianity and God. I've never been so sickened and revolted by any other conversation I've ever had.

I just have to ask. What is it that you are trying to accomplish by coming to these boards? Please answer Blt_to_go's question as to whether there is any hope for the reprobate to ever be saved. If there is, it will never come through any doctrine you're espousing here.