Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 04-16-2013, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

there is no scriptural connection with Isis

That is just silly and ignorant. The characters in John's story of Lazarus, Jesus, Mary and Martha are Osiris, Horus, Isis and Nephthys. This is obvious to anyone who is not wearing dogmatic blinkers and can look at the facts dispassionately.

People here are claiming they can see the big old virgin mother goddess cult of Isis and argue with a straight face that it has no connection to the crazy invented historicised virgin mother fiction in the small country next door. That is just evidence of religious pathology.

Here she is again:http://www.indianetzone.com/44/nairatmya.htm

Where she is the end of wisdom for all that is, and peculiar here is that Christians will deny her every time as a cult without a shine and must wage war instead.

outhouse · 04-16-2013, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

there is no scriptural connection with Isis

That is just silly and ignorant.

Just the opposite. You have not posted anything but.

I asked you to find a passage in Gmark that can be attributed to Isis. One!

You only can run when faced with producing actual evidence.

Anyone can post perceived evidence that forces one to use imagination and jump through mental hoops, that first has to be set up with two paragraphs to explain away why it seems so silly.

Toto · 04-16-2013, 10:22 AM

This article on the previously mentioned scholar named Assman seems relevant here.

Biblical Blame Shift: Is the Egyptologist Jan Assmann Fueling Anti-Semitism?

Quote:

. . . At various points in European cultural history, the memory of ancient Egypt, as the "other" of the West, has assumed a pivotal function. Thus in both the Old Testament and early Christianity, Egypt was hyperbolically constructed as a "negative totem." For the ancient Jews, it became the symbol of worldly corruption ("the fleshpots of Egypt") and soulless idolatry. Among Christians, it became one of the essential sites of paganism—a past from which believers needed to free themselves in order to accede to the promised land of salvation.

Conversely, Assmann shows in Moses the Egyptian: The Memory of Egypt in Western Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Harvard University Press, 1997) that during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment—two highly secularizing eras, in which emancipation from ecclesiastical dogma became a major rallying cry—ancient Egypt's historical value was positively reconfigured, both as the ultimate fount of biblical monotheism and as providing an evidentiary historical basis for Spinoza's heretical pantheism. (As Spinoza famously claimed, Deus sive natura: God and nature are the same.) This historiographical reassessment represented a conscious attempt to ruin the sacred truths by demonstrating that Western monotheism had its origins in pagan practices and rituals. It was an image that was constructed in contrast with Christendom, where, with the Inquisition and the religious wars, religious dogma had culminated in intolerance, persecution, and armed conflagrations of biblical proportion. (It is estimated that during the Thirty Years' War, one-third of the population of Europe either died or was displaced.) Thus, by degrees, biblical Egyptophobia ultimately gave way to Egyptophilia—a tendency that crested with Napoleon's Egyptian expedition (1798-1801) and the French Orientalist Jean-François Champollion's (1790-1832) decipherment of hieroglyphics, which became the basis for modern Egyptology.

Assmann shows that, in the work of the 17th-century English Hebraist John Spencer, the 18th-century English polemicist and freethinker John Toland, and the 18th-century English cleric and critic William Warburton, the figure of Moses played a pivotal role in the early Enlightenment's secularizing discourse on Egypt. It was during this period that the enduring cultural trope of "Moses the Egyptian" was born. To reconceive Moses as an Egyptian was a way of deflating the theological pretensions of biblical monotheism. The hope was that, by demonstrating that Western monotheism had its origins in the nature-centered religion of ancient Egypt, one might be able to defuse Christianity's eschatological, sectarian zealotry—which, in the eyes of its critics, had had such catastrophic historical and political consequences.

From what I have read of Acharya S's purposes and philosophy, this fits her exactly. She embraces a supposedly nature centered astrotheology as a counter to the anti-nature monotheism of the Abrahamic religions.

Chili · 04-16-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From what I have read of Acharya S's purposes and philosophy, this fits her exactly. She embraces a supposedly nature centered astrotheology as a counter to the anti-nature monotheism of the Abrahamic religions.

I can easy agree with you in this Toto, but let me add, and not to preach, that Catholicism is not Abrahamic as 'one of them,' simply because they agree with "this is my body and this is my blood" (John 5:66) that the Abrahamics walked away from in John 6:66 now as both NT and OT people.

And no, it is not good enough to see God in nature as Pantheist while not in your self as the body and blood of Christ, yourself, so that all will be one and 'trees now walk like men' instead of 'men that look like trees', as Mark suggests and therefore needed more spit again just see the difference between trees and men as what that failure shows.

And Yes, Moses was an Egyptian at heart to lead all those children of Israel astray and into the promised land where they did not belong, and still do today as the reason why Passover is still in effect today . . . with the danger here being very real to them as their next door neighbor maybe, still on fire of the Lord and would preach salvation to the Jew.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-16-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

there is no scriptural connection with Isis

That is just silly and ignorant. The characters in John's story of Lazarus, Jesus, Mary and Martha are Osiris, Horus, Isis and Nephthys. This is obvious to anyone who is not wearing dogmatic blinkers and can look at the facts dispassionately.

Wow! Coffee blurt all over my computer screen!

The problem here is the rank petitio principii you've engaged in here in your implied claim that (despite your lack of knowledge of ancient languages and your limited knowledge of what the relevant sources are and your only at second and third hand familiarity with the primary sources you know) sources) you actually have "the (let alone all) the facts" at your disposal and that you and other AS supporters (not to mention AS herself) are the only ones who can claim to have looked at them "dispassionately".

Thanks for that. I needed the laugh.

Jeffrey

Robert Tulip · 04-16-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I asked you to find a passage in Gmark that can be attributed to Isis.

Since there is no virgin birth in the Gospel of Mark, that might be hard. I have provided the clearest example in the Gospels, which happens to be in John. The Egyptian myth is used as the template. This is obvious for anyone who is not wearing blinkers.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-16-2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I asked you to find a passage in Gmark that can be attributed to Isis.

Since there is no virgin birth in the Gospel of Mark, that might be hard. I have provided the clearest example in the Gospels, which happens to be in John. The Egyptian myth is used as the template. This is obvious for anyone who is not wearing blinkers.

There is no virgin birth anywhere in any of the Gospels, especially John which, like Mark, has no birth story. At best, there may be a virginal conception in Luke (Matthew's note and Gabriel's message to Joseph that Mary's bastard is "from the Holy Spirit" (ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου) does not rule out human agency in the bastard's conception any more that John's claim that Christians are born "from God" (ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν) does for their births), but even that is iffy.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 04-16-2013, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This article on the previously mentioned scholar named Assman seems relevant here.

Biblical Blame Shift: Is the Egyptologist Jan Assmann Fueling Anti-Semitism?

Quote:

. . . At various points in European cultural history, the memory of ancient Egypt, as the "other" of the West, has assumed a pivotal function. Thus in both the Old Testament and early Christianity, Egypt was hyperbolically constructed as a "negative totem." For the ancient Jews, it became the symbol of worldly corruption ("the fleshpots of Egypt") and soulless idolatry. Among Christians, it became one of the essential sites of paganism—a past from which believers needed to free themselves in order to accede to the promised land of salvation.

Conversely, Assmann shows in Moses the Egyptian: The Memory of Egypt in Western Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Harvard University Press, 1997) that during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment—two highly secularizing eras, in which emancipation from ecclesiastical dogma became a major rallying cry—

ancient Egypt's historical value was positively reconfigured, both as the ultimate fount of biblical monotheism and as providing an evidentiary historical basis for Spinoza's heretical pantheism. (As Spinoza famously claimed, Deus sive natura: God and nature are the same.)

This historiographical reassessment represented a conscious attempt to ruin the sacred truths by demonstrating that Western monotheism had its origins in pagan practices and rituals.

It was an image that was constructed in contrast with Christendom, where, with the Inquisition and the religious wars, religious dogma had culminated in intolerance, persecution, and armed conflagrations of biblical proportion. (It is estimated that during the Thirty Years' War, one-third of the population of Europe either died or was displaced.) Thus, by degrees, biblical Egyptophobia ultimately gave way to Egyptophilia—a tendency that crested with Napoleon's Egyptian expedition (1798-1801) and the French Orientalist Jean-François Champollion's (1790-1832) decipherment of hieroglyphics, which became the basis for modern Egyptology.

Assmann shows that, in the work of the 17th-century English Hebraist John Spencer, the 18th-century English polemicist and freethinker John Toland, and the 18th-century English cleric and critic William Warburton, the figure of Moses played a pivotal role in the early Enlightenment's secularizing discourse on Egypt. It was during this period that the enduring cultural trope of "Moses the Egyptian" was born. To reconceive Moses as an Egyptian was a way of deflating the theological pretensions of biblical monotheism. The hope was that, by demonstrating that Western monotheism had its origins in the nature-centered religion of ancient Egypt, one might be able to defuse Christianity's eschatological, sectarian zealotry—which, in the eyes of its critics, had had such catastrophic historical and political consequences.

From what I have read of Acharya S's purposes and philosophy, this fits her exactly.

She embraces a supposedly nature centered astrotheology as a counter to the anti-nature monotheism of the Abrahamic religions.

Well done Toto. FWIW I would probably agree with this, especially considering the bolded bits I have highlight in the above quote.

Western monotheism had its origins in pagan practices and rituals.

As to the influence of Egypt, one must take the time to consider the influence of the Egyptians on the Greek intellectual traditions (i.e. mathematics, medicine, building, astronomy, etc, etc).

It therefore follows that some of these origins were Egyptian.

References to Egypt in the Nag Hammadi Codices

Egypt seems to feature many mentions in a search within the Nag Hammadi Codices.

What do these references reveal?

Here are two.

Asclepius 21-29 - Translated by James Brashler, Peter A. Dirkse, and Douglas M. Parrott

Quote:

"Or are you ignorant, Asclepius, that Egypt is (the) image of heaven? Moreover, it is the dwelling place of heaven and all the forces that are in heaven. If it is proper for us to speak the truth, our land is (the) temple of the world. And it is proper for you not to be ignorant that a time will come in it (our land, when) Egyptians will seem to have served the divinity in vain, and all their activity in their religion will be despised. For all divinity will leave Egypt, and will flee upward to heaven. And Egypt will be widowed; it will be abandoned by the gods. For foreigners will come into Egypt, and they will rule it. Egypt! Moreover, Egyptians will be prohibited from worshipping God. Furthermore, they will come into the ultimate punishment, especially whoever among them is found worshipping (and) honoring God.

"And in that day, the country that was more pious than all countries will become impious. No longer will it be full of temples, but it will be full of tombs. Neither will it be full of gods, but (it will be full of) corpses. Egypt! Egypt will become like the fables. And your religious objects will be [...] the marvelous things, and [...], and if your words are stones and are wonderful. And the barbarian will be better than you, Egyptian, in his religion, whether (he is) a Scythian, or the Hindus, or some other of this sort.

"And what is this that I say about the Egyptian? For they (the Egyptians) will not abandon Egypt. For (in) the time (when) the gods have abandoned the land of Egypt, and have fled upward to heaven, then all Egyptians will die. And Egypt will be made a desert by the gods and the Egyptians. And as for you, River, there will be a day when you will flow with blood more than water. And dead bodies will be (stacked) higher than the dams. And he who is dead will not be mourned as much as he who is alive. Indeed, the latter will be known as an Egyptian on account of his language in the second period (of time). - Asclepius, why are you weeping? - He will seem like (a) foreigner in regard to his customs. Divine Egypt will suffer evils greater than these. Egypt - lover of God, and the dwelling place of the gods, school of religion - will become an example of impiousness.

The Thunder, Perfect Mind - Translated by George W. MacRae

Quote:

I am the one whose image is great in Egypt and the one who has no image among the barbarians.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 04-16-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

... FWIW I would probably agree with this, especially considering the bolded bits I have highlight in the above quote.

Western monotheism had its origins in pagan practices and rituals.

What is it that you agree with? Assman is not saying that western monotheism has its origins in pagan practices - his thesis seems to be that intellectuals during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment created a fantasy about Egypt as a counter to the problems they saw in Christianity.

mountainman · 04-16-2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

... FWIW I would probably agree with this, especially considering the bolded bits I have highlight in the above quote.

Western monotheism had its origins in pagan practices and rituals.

What is it that you agree with?

Spinoza's heretical pantheism. (As Spinoza famously claimed, Deus sive natura: God and nature are the same.)

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

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