Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-05-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrier

During the Dark Ages (500-1000 A.D.) the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin.

The bickering cleverly skirts around the great revolution and controversies of fourth century political history in which it can be argued that the Dark Ages truly commenced with the persecution and intolerance of the imperial Roman Christian regime, formalised at Nicaea, over the indigenous Greek religious / philosophical / metaphysical milieu. The Greek Vlasis Rassias has published a series of evidentiary citations in his Demolish Them! published in Greek, Athens 1994. The title of the book is in fact a quote of a command from a Christian Roman emperor concerning the destruction of the Greek (ie: by then the term was pagan) temple heritage.

The revolution of the 4th century saw imperial Roman Christianity meteorically rise to supremacy under Constantine, and gradually eliminate the Greek cultural heritage, including its literature, from the empire. Ask Sopater, the Head of the Academy of Plato in Constantinople, when in his opinion, the "Dark Ages commenced".

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrier

That was a conscious choice. Indeed, since contact with the Greek East was never broken, they had every opportunity to remedy that loss. They didn't.

It was far from a conscious choice. As an empire wide phenomenom the Greek "Guardian Class" was broken assunder at Nicaea in the 4th century and replaced by personally appointed Christian bishops by the new "Bishop of Bishops" Constantine. It was a revolution! The Sacred College of the Pontifices (that is in any other words the traditional Greek priesthood and academies) was made REDUNDANT along with the Praetorian Guard. The old Greek religions were denigrated by "The New Boss" and "Pontifex Maximus".

It was a great loss to the Greeks and to those who valued the Greek heritage. The Western and Eastern Greeks had no opportunity to remedy this revolution. It was all over and done with in a military and tactical sense between the years of 324 and 325 CE. After this the Greeks were called heretics, Arians or pagans. Some of course elected to become tax-exempt bishops.

Quote:

“The revolution of the fourth century,
carrying with it a new historiography
will not be understood if we underrate
the determination, almost the fierceness,
with which the Christians
appreciated and exploited

"the miracle"

that had transformed Constantine
into a supporter, a protector,
and later a legislator
of the Christian church.”

— Arnaldo Momigliano (1908-1987),
Pagan and Christian Historiography
in the Fourth Century A.D; (1960)

By publishing and supporting the theology of the new testament
Constantine effectively made the Greeks gentiles in their own land.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Carrier clearly is saying the Greek texts were part of the Latin West's heritage. They were at one point widely read and well integrated into Roman knowledge (much as Latin texts would have been widely understood a few centuries ago among the educated classes.)

The point is that something was lost in the Dark Ages.

Or was it in fact lost on 28 October 312? Or shortly thereafter as the western Christians burn the Greek literature of Porphyry - the greatest and most widely published Greek academic of the early 4th century? When fascist military supremacists publically burn the literature of universities and its professors what does this tell the common person? Porphyry preserved Euclid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

On 28 October 312 the Christians suddenly and unexpectedly found themselves victorious (2). The victory was a miracle — though opinions differed as to the nature of the sign vouchsafed to Constantine. The winners became conscious of their victory in a mood of resentment and vengeance. A voice shrill with implacable hatred announced to the world the victory of the Milvian Bridge

The something "lost" (and later recovered) was the Greek civilisation (its literature, its temples and shrines, its KNOWLEDGE).
It was lost as a direct result of Constantine's Christian authoritative and fascist revolution by the sword and book.
Its loss was obscured by twisted fabricated histories of imperially sponsored 4th century authors of "Christian History".

Clivedurdle · 01-05-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Melvyn Bragg and guests Tim Barrett, Naomi Standen and Frances Wood discuss the Silk Road, the trade routes which spanned Asia for over a thousand years, carrying Buddhism to China and paper-making and gunpowder westwards.

In 1900, a Taoist monk came upon a cave near the Chinese town of Dunhuang. Inside, he found thousands of ancient manuscripts. They revealed a vast amount of evidence about the so-called Silk Road: the great trade routes which had stretched from Central Asia, through desert oases, to China, throughout the first millennium.

Besides silk, the Silk Road helped the dispersion of writing and paper-making, coinage and gunpowder, and it was along these trade routes that Buddhism reached China from India.

The history of these transcontinental links reveals a dazzlingly complex meeting and mingling of civilisations, which lasted for well over a thousand years.

With:

Tim Barrett is Professor of East Asian History at the School of Oriental and African Studies; Naomi Standen is Senior Lecturer in Chinese Studies at Newcastle University; Frances Wood is Head of the Chinese Section at the British Library.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p315t

This programme discusses how the silk road worked.

Clivedurdle · 01-05-2010, 02:57 PM

The Soviet Union 100 mph cars going past the Kremlin is possibly the best image. Normally most traffic is bumbling and bouncing around a town or two, every so often the road gets cleared to let Brezhnev through.

PhilosopherJay · 01-05-2010, 04:49 PM

Hi toto,

I am not so sure that Carrier is correct that the "Christians did not actively abandon this [Greek] heritage." Here are a few things they did that show they did actively abandon it:

From http://boards.history.com/thread.jsp...rue&print=true

Quote:

324 CE
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326 CE
Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330 CE
Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335 CE
Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341 CE
Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 CE
New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".

353 CE
An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".

354 CE
A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

356 CE
A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

357 CE
Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359 CE
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363 CE
Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363 CE
Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364 CE
Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, including private ones.

365 CE
An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

370 CE
Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the city-squares of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

372 CE
Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and destroy all writings of their wisdom.

373 CE
New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

375 CE
The Temple of the God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

380 CE
On the 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with Church dogma. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of the Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

381 CE
On May the 2nd, Theodosius deprives christians that return to the Pagan Religion of all their rights. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of the Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

382 CE
"Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the christian mass.

384 CE
Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius (a dedicated christian), to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

385 to 388 CE
Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and his bishop "Saint" Marcellus, scour the countryside with their gangs, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386 CE
Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

388 CE
Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390 CE
Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 CE
On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of the God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

This suggests that Christians were a bit more active in exterminating ancient religions and Philosophies (including more or less naturalistic and scientific ones) than Carrier suggests.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

...
If we had a set of Greek texts sitting in a Chinese library, for example, we wouldn't say that that alone made it part of their heritage. If it was part of the Latin West's heritage, why wasn't it translated into Latin when Greek ability dropped away?

I wonder if you read Carrier's blog post completely?

From Carrier's blog:

Quote:

During the Dark Ages (500-1000 A.D.) the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin. That was a conscious choice. Indeed, since contact with the Greek East was never broken, they had every opportunity to remedy that loss. They didn't.

. . .

Still, Flynn is right to say that Christians didn't actively abandon this heritage. It was destroyed by the largely unrelated collapse of society and the ensuing barbarian invasions. All the Christians did was lose interest. Hence they made little effort to preserve or recover what was lost, quite simply because it provided no demonstrable benefit to salvation, and was often a suspect fuel for heresy, while other goals were deemed far more worthy of devoting time and resources to (like copying and preserving devotional literature). And what they did try to keep they often kept incompetently, incompletely, or only in shallow outline.

Toto · 01-05-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi toto,

I am not so sure that Carrier is correct that the "Christians did not actively abandon this [Greek] heritage." Here are a few things they did that show they did actively abandon it:

...

Hi Jay -

Carrier is specifically concerned with the scientific and technical knowledge from the classical era.

Your source is concerned more with religious intolerance, and at the end it says Summarised from Vlassis Rassias' book "Es Edaphos Pherein" (Demolish Them), Athens 2000. This is the same list of atrocities that gets passed around like one of those emailed claims. . .

Do you know anyone who has gone through that list and fact checked it? I think someone started to do that here, but it's difficult to locate because Pete includes a cite to Rassias whenever he can.

I think that the case against Christianity is strong enough that atheists should not have to rely on unsourced claims.

mountainman · 01-05-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you know anyone who has gone through that list and fact checked it? I think someone started to do that here, but it's difficult to locate because Pete includes a cite to Rassias whenever he can.

It is cited because it is highly relevant. The last time this list was attempted to be checked in collaboration on this forum the christian apologists fled the field. The sources to this list will include the following:

1) Codex Theodosianus
2) Eusebius' Vita Constantini
3) Libanius
4) Zosimus

Quote:

I think that the case against Christianity is strong enough that atheists should not have to rely on unsourced claims.

These are not "unsourced claims" and they do not necessarily concern atheists but all students in the objective field of ancient history. It is commonly admitted that the 4th century was an age of Christian persecution and intolerance. What is not commonly understood is just how dark (and Draconian) and "Throw Back" that age actually was.

Joan of Bark · 01-05-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

324 CE
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity the only official religion of the Roman Empire

I'd like to know the source for this one, as it seems to contradict The Edict of Milan, issued in 313. Maybe Constantine had a change of heart?

Anyway, I would point out that medieval Europe was dominated by Catholicism, and during that time science virtually ground to a halt.

mountainman · 01-05-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

324 CE
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity the only official religion of the Roman Empire

I'd like to know the source for this one, as it seems to contradict The Edict of Milan, issued in 313. Maybe Constantine had a change of heart?

The source is Constantine's imperial edict appearing in Codex Theodosianus 16.5.1 dated 326 CE:

“Religious privileges are reserved for Christians”

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01-05-2010, 02:57 PM	#43
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Soviet Union 100 mph cars going past the Kremlin is possibly the best image. Normally most traffic is bumbling and bouncing around a town or two, every so often the road gets cleared to let Brezhnev through.

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