Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 01-20-2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. C. Unicorns

I have to agree. All the commandments sound reactionary, so it is a good starting point to ask what is "or any likeness" reacting against. The only place I know that had elaborate paintings, carvings and statues of gods, people and animals at the time was Egypt. Perhaps it is a blanket denunciation of their decadence, not to be followed today. (yes I know it's a lame idea)

Given the Exodus context of the Ten Commandments, it doesn't seem all that lame to me though the lack of evidence for an actual Exodus might cause a bit of a limp.

Quote:

Or one could argue that drawings were not considered likenesses, and the likeness had to be statue-like, such as a fetish or the golden calf, since this was the "typical" form of an idol.

I just don't see the author or the Jews who accepted his writings as being willing to grant such an exception.

I wonder if there is any evidence suggesting the additional clause literally is a later addition to what used to only prohibit idols?

Tigers! · 01-22-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

What you intend by this is unclear but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it reflects a sudden realization of your misunderstanding of my position.

Just in case it reflects continuing confusion on your part:

Worshipping paintings of saints is obviously just as prohibited as worshipping paintings of gods or even worshipping paintings of unicorn ponies. As you pointed out, the broad context is a prohibition against worshipping anything except the god of the Jews.

It's so much easier and consistent not to worship anything except God and don't make to make any representation of God in any form or media.

Helpmabob · 01-23-2006, 03:32 AM

Hi hatsoff -

Quote:

That passage is talking about idol worship, not paintings. Moreover, a lot of Christians believe OT laws are no longer applicable under the New Covenant.

Christ graciously came to free us from the need to fulfil these commandments 100%; He told us that it was impossible for us to do alone - that is why He came. However, I believe that these OT laws can still to be useful as a target. We should not 'sin abundantly so that grace may increase'. So a working knowledge of the 10 commandments is still beneficial.

Amaleq13 · 01-23-2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

It's so much easier and consistent not to worship anything except God and don't make to make any representation of God in any form or media.

I agree but you know what is even easier?

Worshipping nothing.

Amaleq13 · 01-23-2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

So a working knowledge of the 10 commandments is still beneficial.

Bull. At least half of them only benefit the monotheistic religion that advocates them. The rest can be deduced from the "Golden Rule" and benefit everyone.

Helpmabob · 01-26-2006, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Bull. At least half of them only benefit the monotheistic religion that advocates them. The rest can be deduced from the "Golden Rule" and benefit everyone.

I consider it a benefit in as much that they highlight every man's inability to follow them perfectly alone, thus showing the need for some external help.

Amaleq13 · 01-26-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

I consider it a benefit in as much that they highlight every man's inability to follow them perfectly alone, thus showing the need for some external help.

Again, that doesn't benefit the man as much as it benefits the institution that exists to provide that "external help".

Thomas II · 01-26-2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biitar

Hello!

This is more some question of depicting god and saints.

1.Is there any law or ban in the Bibel or Toran/Talmud about depicting god? Is it a sin or is it ok? I was allways under the impression that it was(at least earlier) forbidden to depict god? (But much (religious)art depicts god, so how is it?).

2. Is there diffrent "laws" in say, catholicism and the Russian orthodox church about idols(picture of saints)?

I have heard that the (Russian) orthodox church has many paintings of saints and such that is prayed to while in other churches this is a no no!

Is this true or have I mixed something up?

/Joel

The Sistine Chapel has a painting of God Father as the old guy, but not too old, with long white hair...So obviously they don't care. For them the more the better...Some statues of Saints,Jesus,Mary are venerated big time.
People get very attached to their icons...They believe that the statue itself
is imbued with the "spirit" of mary, Jesus ,or the saint...
Sometimes it's not even a statue...Sometimes they see it in a bread toast or in a glass window, or in a cloud in the sky...And it is that people have imagination...

Helpmabob · 01-27-2006, 02:34 AM

Hi Amaleq13 -

Quote:

Again, that doesn't benefit the man as much as it benefits the institution that exists to provide that "external help".

The help I very much had in mind was salvation from sin. This is not on offer from any institution, but can be found only in God Himself. Anybody applying to an institution that professes to offer salvation from sin by regular attendance or financial contribution or watever is barking up completely the wrong tree.

Amaleq13 · 01-27-2006, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Hi Amaleq13 - The help I very much had in mind was salvation from sin. This is not on offer from any institution, but can be found only in God Himself.

I understood exactly what you meant but you are incorrect that the offer can be separate from the institution(s) that present it. The offer of salvation from sin is as much a part of the institution of Christianity as the offer of cleansing of body thetans is a part of Scientology. As far as I'm concerned both "disorders" have an equal basis in reality (ie zip).

Offering a cure for a fabricated disease only benefits the one making the offer.

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