KrisK10

Toto, Thanks for the refs to previous threads. I wasn't aware that 1 Cor 15:3-7 was so unlikely to be a tradition. I thought there was a lot of disagreement about that. No?

Kris

Toto

My feeling is that Christian apologists, who need to believe in a historical link from the early apostles to the current church, like the idea of traditions reflected in Paul's letters. But it is all supposition - what evidence is there?

KrisK10

Toto,

That question leads to a huge volume of often ambiguous evidence, each piece of evidence often having multiple possibilities/interpretations. I'd suggest that the supposition of a sect growing out of an HJ (which implies traditions of belief in that sect) is no more fraught with difficulties and uncertainties than the supposition of an MJ.

I have no bias which needs an HJ (haven't been to church in 30 years if that helps). Having found the debates over the existence of an HJ really leading to no clear conclusion (I'll bet that ends up being the conclusion of the Jesus Project too), I've elected to move on and study Christian origins from the standpoint of a growing sect based on an HJ.

Kris

Doug Shaver

All kinds of things are possible. What I think is most probable is that when Paul mentioned "the twelve," he was not referring to a group of men who had been disciples of a charismatic preacher named Jesus.

mountainman

What evidence is there?

Good question. I have attempted to demonstrate
that the answer to that rhetorical question is in
fact none - in the unambiguous sense.

But my demonstrations appear to be being read
as supposition. Can you explain this?

Best wishes


Pete Brown

mountainman

If we are capable of understanding that there were in fact
opponents to the implementation of a new imperial cult in
the fourth century (irrespective of its legitimacy) then
we should be able to understand that they were powerless.

They were not in any position to use the sword against the
emperor's initiatives. However, they had the pen, and they
used it to speak against christianity.

I have recently examined the text of the NHC 6.1
"The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles". Here
one reason that I can think of as to why the term
Peter and The Twelve Apostles is used is to
deliberately parody number of apostles in the New
Testament story ---- the apostles could not count.

Sometimes they counted their number as 13, and at
other times 11. They had no basic skills in counting
or in cognition, or in fact, in healing.

Whereas the message being provided is the ascetic
path, the apostles continually seek food and their
lodgings for the night. The Christian ministry is set
up to be righteous judges over the rich.



Best wishes,


Pete Brown