Freethought & Rationalism Archive

goldenroad · 03-09-2007, 08:06 PM

So finally we come down to one of the evidential strengths of the Christian faith and what do we have? Instead of actually studying the topic it is vaguely dismissed as (one of my favorite words) poppycock for no reason.

Lets look at one set of prophecies which can be found in Isaiah 53. These prophecies fit exactly to Jesus as no prediction could possibly hope to do without divine inspiration.

But of course the atheists think prophecies like this (and many others)were written after Christ live (though this remains unproven beyond hopeful speculation). The passage I mentioned above can be found in the Jewish scriptures and also the dead sea scrolls. So unfortunately they seem to be correct. As for the apostles doctoring the gospels, unfortunately I can't rebute that except to say that is once again hopeful, biased speculation on the part of the atheists.

Please comment.

DBT · 03-09-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenroad

So an atheist will stoop to unquestioningly accepting the Jewish belief of Jesus just to support his beliefs?

I hadn't noticed that anyone here was accepting anything unquestioningly...

Gullwind · 03-09-2007, 08:15 PM

So who are the offspring and descendants of the "suffering servant" in verses 8 and 10 of Isaiah 53 supposed to be?

Actually, James Cameron may have found the answer...

Asha'man · 03-10-2007, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenroad

Lets look at one set of prophecies which can be found in Isaiah 53. These prophecies fit exactly to Jesus as no prediction could possibly hope to do without divine inspiration.

You are joking, right? Isaiah 53? Really? (This vese has been beaten to death over in BC/H)

Why don't you tell me exactly what the prophecy is in that verse. Because, frankly, it looks like there isn't one. It's a lamentation about how the Nation of Israel has gotten screwed over and is currently (for the author) pretty miserable, and there isn't a prophetic thought in the whole thing.

Even worse, some pretty clear analysis has shown that the Gospel of Mark, the first supposed account of Jesus' life, was composed almost entirely by taking stories and themes from the Hebrew Bible and re-wrapping them into a modern story. Therefore, the fact that HB themes re-appear in the life of Jesus is clearly not a sign of prophecy, but a direct result of the way the story was composed.

Nobody has ever suggested that the HB was written after the stories of Jesus. But post-dating your initial story is only one way to fabricate a prophecy when there isn't one. Were you really unaware of any other methods?

Coleslaw · 03-10-2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

You are joking, right? Isaiah 53? Really? (This vese has been beaten to death over in BC/H)

Well, I don't know that it's been beaten to death in this thread of goldenroad's, but it has been brought to goldenroad's attention before that Isaiah 53 is not prophecy and is meant as a description of the nation of Israel.

Quote:

Why don't you tell me exactly what the prophecy is in that verse. Because, frankly, it looks like there isn't one. It's a lamentation about how the Nation of Israel has gotten screwed over and is currently (for the author) pretty miserable, and there isn't a prophetic thought in the whole thing.

Even worse, some pretty clear analysis has shown that the Gospel of Mark, the first supposed account of Jesus' life, was composed almost entirely by taking stories and themes from the Hebrew Bible and re-wrapping them into a modern story. Therefore, the fact that HB themes re-appear in the life of Jesus is clearly not a sign of prophecy, but a direct result of the way the story was composed.

Nobody has ever suggested that the HB was written after the stories of Jesus. But post-dating your initial story is only one way to fabricate a prophecy when there isn't one. Were you really unaware of any other methods?

They've been brought to his attention before. That doesn't preclude his remaining unaware of them.

Al Fresco · 03-10-2007, 11:29 AM

For a comprehensive treatment of the subject, see Farrell Till's Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled.

goldenroad · 03-10-2007, 08:05 PM

Consider these

Zech. 9:9
Micah 5:2
Jeremiah 31:15 (this one concerns Herod murdering children in Bethlemhem)
Psalm 16:10
Isaiah 42:1-9

If you would like to see a list (these were just some ones found in my bible quickly) obviously you can just google 'messianic prophecies'.

aa5874 · 03-10-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenroad

Lets look at one set of prophecies which can be found in Isaiah 53. These prophecies fit exactly to Jesus as no prediction could possibly hope to do without divine inspiration.

The Jews have rejected your 'Messiah' for the last 2000 years with almost no hope of acceptance. Isaiah 53, according to them, has no bearing whatsoever on a person crucified for the sins of the world. It is also interesting to note that the Jews do claim to be in touch with the divine, the God of Abraham is their Father.

Gullwind · 03-10-2007, 09:03 PM

How about responding to the posts you asked for regarding Isaiah 53 before tossing out a bunch of new ones?

DaMan121 · 03-10-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziffel

Does it matter? The NT text was written hundreds of years after the OT, and even 40 to 70 years after Christ allegedly was around. Like every other cult touting their hero, they were prone to simply writing him as they pleased.

So how did they get it so wrong? Did they not understand Jewish beliefs that they couldnt retrospectively fullfill the actual prophecies? Or they just didnt care since they werent trying to convert Jews anyway?

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03-09-2007, 08:06 PM	#21
goldenroad Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: standing behind you with a fire-poker Posts: 154	So finally we come down to one of the evidential strengths of the Christian faith and what do we have? Instead of actually studying the topic it is vaguely dismissed as (one of my favorite words) poppycock for no reason. Lets look at one set of prophecies which can be found in Isaiah 53. These prophecies fit exactly to Jesus as no prediction could possibly hope to do without divine inspiration. But of course the atheists think prophecies like this (and many others)were written after Christ live (though this remains unproven beyond hopeful speculation). The passage I mentioned above can be found in the Jewish scriptures and also the dead sea scrolls. So unfortunately they seem to be correct. As for the apostles doctoring the gospels, unfortunately I can't rebute that except to say that is once again hopeful, biased speculation on the part of the atheists. Please comment.

03-09-2007, 08:15 PM	#23
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	So who are the offspring and descendants of the "suffering servant" in verses 8 and 10 of Isaiah 53 supposed to be? Actually, James Cameron may have found the answer...

03-10-2007, 11:29 AM	#26
Al Fresco Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sandpoint, ID Posts: 363	For a comprehensive treatment of the subject, see Farrell Till's Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled.

03-10-2007, 08:05 PM	#27
goldenroad Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: standing behind you with a fire-poker Posts: 154	Consider these Zech. 9:9 Micah 5:2 Jeremiah 31:15 (this one concerns Herod murdering children in Bethlemhem) Psalm 16:10 Isaiah 42:1-9 If you would like to see a list (these were just some ones found in my bible quickly) obviously you can just google 'messianic prophecies'.

03-10-2007, 09:03 PM	#29
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	How about responding to the posts you asked for regarding Isaiah 53 before tossing out a bunch of new ones?

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