Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yingstpe · 11-14-2005, 07:09 AM

My parents fundy church in Lima, Ohio is hosting a visit by Iowa State University professor Guillermo Gonzalez. My parents, I suppose in an attempt to get me back in a church, are really pushing me to attend and they assure me that the Prof really wants non-believers to attend and confront him on his ID theory. Not being a scientist or public speaker, I am hesitant to approach him in the open Q & A portion of the seminar as I would probably have my ass handed to me in any verbal debate but knowing the church leadership very well I am sure speaking to the Prof afterwards won't be a problem.

What I am after is some advise on current ID "gotcha" arguments. Two things I do want to ask him about (from a post by RBH): 1. What is the method used to identify something as designed? 2. How did the "designed" items come into existence?

The funny part (and so revealing) of this whole visit is that on Sunday is a "super-secret" ID seminar to the church by the Prof. As my Dad said "Saturday is a secular scientific review of ID while Sunday will be a Christian look at ID."

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments.

Roland98 · 11-14-2005, 07:45 AM

Hi yingstpe! :wave: I'm actually from Findlay originally, and I just happened to go to a talk by Gonzalez at the University of Northern Iowa in September. I have a lengthy summary of it here; likely it will be much of the same stuff. The question I asked (and he spun without really answering) was this one:

Quote:

Q: You mentioned in the first slight that anti-ID people “mischaracterize�? ID as religion or creationism. In light of the Wedge document and the use of “creationism�? as a placeholder in the ID text “Pandas and Peoples�? by ID-supportive authors, why do you still consider this a mischaracterization? A: ID stands alone, with or without its cultural implications. Brought up Dawkin’s quote about being an “intellectually fulfilled atheist,�? asked if that makes Darwinism wrong. Religious views are irrelevant. (And yet his biggest criticism about Hector Avalos is that he’s an atheist!! My, the hypocrisy…) It’s not re-packaged creationism, because there was a 1987 court case (anyone know which one he’s talking about? I didn’t catch the names) and ID was already beginning before then.

He didn’t really address the “Pandas and People�? item, but suggested that anyone who said ID was creationism was just a conspiracy theorist.

There's been a lot more that's come out on the background of that since then, showing all the instances of substituting "intelligent design" for "creationism" in the ID book "Pandas and People." Of course, the Christians at that church probably wouldn't care about it, but if the first talk is supposedly on the "secular and scientific" portion of ID, it becomes quite relevant.

ETA: actually, I just remembered I'll actually be back in town this weekend. Is the talk this Saturday (the 19th?) If so, do you mind posting time and place? I might be able to make it.

general_koffi · 11-14-2005, 08:04 AM

*Devil's advocate*

1. Everything is designed, you heretic. We just have to look at the complexity of the human body or the incredible beauty of the <insert lifeform> to see that there must have been a designer. We're God-fearing Americans; we don't need no stinking "method".

Expect the "watch" or "banana" arguments, or varients thereof. Counter with "Why does the human body have such obvious flaws? (cancer, birth defects, bad breath etc)" and "If God is such an intelligent designer, then why did he have to go through the entire Australopithecus and Homo genii before he got to Homo Sapien? Trial and error?" Maybe even give the ol' "You argue that there must be a designer for the universe, but then who designed the designer?" a spin.

2. You unclean atheist, you. God went "Let there be light..." and so on and so forth. The "I'm really very ignorant, but my Christian faith makes that acceptable." argument may come through as well. This is almost always a plea of ignorance chalked up to "God works in mysterious ways." Nothing much you can do against that except rub his own stupidity in his face. Maybe give him a bit of "Just because we can't explain every detail of the universe's creation doesn't mean that we should start making up stories and inventing ghosts to fill the holes of our understanding..."

Looky here: http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/watchmaker.htm

yingstpe · 11-14-2005, 08:06 AM

Roland98 :wave: The Church website has the information about the meeting and yes it is this Saturday, the 19th. I would love to have someone with your knowledge attend as any point raised by me would be disregared as I am an infamous aethist backslider wholly seduced by "man's knowledge".

llDayo · 11-14-2005, 08:09 AM

Intelligent Design, at least from a human perspective, requires a purpose to the creation. Computers are designed to run programs, cars are designed to transport, and baseballs are designed to be hit by baseball bats. What is the purpose of humans?

I think that would leave him speechless. Anyone have a counter that I most likely didn't see?

espritch · 11-14-2005, 08:13 AM

My first question would be "what is the designer and what evidence supports that conclusion?" My second would be "what is the method by which the designer implements it's designs?" My third would be "If this isn't religion, why is there a second separate meeting tomarrow to discuss ID from a purely Christian perspective?"

Roland98 · 11-14-2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yingstpe

Roland98 :wave: The Church website has the information about the meeting and yes it is this Saturday, the 19th. I would love to have someone with your knowledge attend as any point raised by me would be disregared as I am an infamous aethist backslider wholly seduced by "man's knowledge".

Awesome--I was hoping it would be in the evening, as I have a baby shower to attend that afternoon. Do you want to drop me a PM with some of your contact info, in case I do make it there?

Paul2 · 11-14-2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

From the website

Professor Gonzalez will be speaking on the subject of Intelligent Design, how it makes the earth a privileged planet, and why Darwinian science from the steam engine era is no longer able to keep up in the information age.

I'm confused. Do they actually think that the theory of evolution has gone unchanged since the 'steam engine era?' Unbelievable. What also makes me mad is the fact that they think the steam engine is an old and busted technology. Don't they realize that nuke plants use the same concept? *shakes fists*

Joe Bloe · 11-14-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

From the website

Professor Gonzalez will be speaking on the subject of Intelligent Design, how it makes the earth a privileged planet [and us its most special inhabitants], and why Darwinian science from the steam engine era is no longer able to keep up in the information age.

There's the key. That's why they prefer stone age myth to steam engine age, or information age or nuclear age, science.

yingstpe · 11-14-2005, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul2

Quote:

From the website

Professor Gonzalez will be speaking on the subject of Intelligent Design, how it makes the earth a privileged planet, and why Darwinian science from the steam engine era is no longer able to keep up in the information age.

I'm confused. Do they actually think that the theory of evolution has gone unchanged since the 'steam engine era?' Unbelievable. What also makes me mad is the fact that they think the steam engine is an old and busted technology. Don't they realize that nuke plants use the same concept? *shakes fists*

The "steam engine era" really cracked me up also. I am an engineer respondsible for pumps, compressors, and steam turbines at a petro-chemical plant and the same "steam engine era" concepts are in use everyday. The information age has allowed us to understand and describe what is occuring much better but the broad concept is still in use, sort of like...I don't know...EVOLUTION

11-14-2005, 07:09 AM	#1
yingstpe Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 23	An Evening with IDer Prof Gonzalez My parents fundy church in Lima, Ohio is hosting a visit by Iowa State University professor Guillermo Gonzalez. My parents, I suppose in an attempt to get me back in a church, are really pushing me to attend and they assure me that the Prof really wants non-believers to attend and confront him on his ID theory. Not being a scientist or public speaker, I am hesitant to approach him in the open Q & A portion of the seminar as I would probably have my ass handed to me in any verbal debate but knowing the church leadership very well I am sure speaking to the Prof afterwards won't be a problem. What I am after is some advise on current ID "gotcha" arguments. Two things I do want to ask him about (from a post by RBH): 1. What is the method used to identify something as designed? 2. How did the "designed" items come into existence? The funny part (and so revealing) of this whole visit is that on Sunday is a "super-secret" ID seminar to the church by the Prof. As my Dad said "Saturday is a secular scientific review of ID while Sunday will be a Christian look at ID." Thanks in advance for any constructive comments.

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11-14-2005, 08:04 AM	#3
general_koffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 10,887	Devil's advocate 1. Everything is designed, you heretic. We just have to look at the complexity of the human body or the incredible beauty of the <insert lifeform> to see that there must have been a designer. We're God-fearing Americans; we don't need no stinking "method". Expect the "watch" or "banana" arguments, or varients thereof. Counter with "Why does the human body have such obvious flaws? (cancer, birth defects, bad breath etc)" and "If God is such an intelligent designer, then why did he have to go through the entire Australopithecus and Homo genii before he got to Homo Sapien? Trial and error?" Maybe even give the ol' "You argue that there must be a designer for the universe, but then who designed the designer?" a spin. 2. You unclean atheist, you. God went "Let there be light..." and so on and so forth. The "I'm really very ignorant, but my Christian faith makes that acceptable." argument may come through as well. This is almost always a plea of ignorance chalked up to "God works in mysterious ways." Nothing much you can do against that except rub his own stupidity in his face. Maybe give him a bit of "Just because we can't explain every detail of the universe's creation doesn't mean that we should start making up stories and inventing ghosts to fill the holes of our understanding..." Looky here: http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/watchmaker.htm

11-14-2005, 08:06 AM	#4
yingstpe Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 23	Roland98 :wave: The Church website has the information about the meeting and yes it is this Saturday, the 19th. I would love to have someone with your knowledge attend as any point raised by me would be disregared as I am an infamous aethist backslider wholly seduced by "man's knowledge".

11-14-2005, 08:09 AM	#5
llDayo Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 316	Intelligent Design, at least from a human perspective, requires a purpose to the creation. Computers are designed to run programs, cars are designed to transport, and baseballs are designed to be hit by baseball bats. What is the purpose of humans? I think that would leave him speechless. Anyone have a counter that I most likely didn't see?

11-14-2005, 08:13 AM	#6
espritch Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 2,038	My first question would be "what is the designer and what evidence supports that conclusion?" My second would be "what is the method by which the designer implements it's designs?" My third would be "If this isn't religion, why is there a second separate meeting tomarrow to discuss ID from a purely Christian perspective?"

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