Magdlyn

That is a harmonization. From my POV, the varying names of "god" in Tanakh represent differing traditions amongst early Hebrews.

Who was this priest-king Melchizedek of Salem with his El Elyon? Nothing to do with YHWH. Yet, he blessed Abram and Abe gave him tithes.

YHWH means something like I Am, while El Shaddai means Almighty, or the Destroyer (?). El Elyon means God Most High. And so on til it gets really confusing.

I found these sites helpful:

http://www.awitness.org/bible_commen...m_shaddai.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_name_of_God_in_Judaism

ETA, I see this thread went on without me while I was doing dishes and research. Day late and a dollar short, me.

I see when Magus in online, threads get long quick.

Yahzi

Assuming we can take Dado as informative guide to Judaism (and I know of no reason why we shouldn't), I think the operative question becomes:

how did a faith that understood justice, fairness, and reason spawn something as abhorrent as Christianity?

I think part of the answer, Dado, is that applying reason to faith doesn't work. Either you wind up an atheist or a rabid fundy. The middle position you are trying to take - where you apply reason up until the point you don't want to apply reason anymore - is ideologically bankrupt, and will invariably spawn fundiesm. You already know this, of course, because you already know that Judiasm spawns a Messiah every fifty years or so. Jesus is just the longest running show in Messiahism, not the only.

Ennazus

This has been an interesting thread.

I never "refused" Christ at all. He dumped me. I was his girl for many years and I called him (via prayer) all the time. I called him when I was happy and when I was sad. Many times I begged him to listen to me and just give me some kind of sign that he cared. I called and called him, but he never answered. Never. How many years I wasted trying to talk to that guy! I left him so many messages, but he NEVER, EVER returned my calls.

Finally, I got over the guy and realized I was better off without him. Jesus turned me down cold and I won't spend my whole life begging and crying for a man who doesn't want me. Screw that.

Mageth

Another good book that covers the various names of God, and the "evolution" of God in the Tanakh, is God: A Biography by Jack Miles. I'm currently reading it.

Mageth

Be wary. According to many Christians, he doesn't get over you so easily, so is perhaps stalking you as we speak.

Ennazus

I kicked him to the curb, so he's going to have to work pretty hard to get me back.

Plognark

Actually, the common comment I see is that you never really spoke to him to begin with. Since a true christian TM would never ever do such a thing as stray from the flock

Ennazus

I really didn't stray, I got the hell away from the flock.

dado

when you stop taking Jewish texts grossly out of context to support your case, then - and only then - can you claim to be talking about "Christianity". until then the simple fact remains: Judaism is quite clear that either everybody goes on to the afterlife together, or none of us go because there is no afterlife. the idea that G-d created us simply to put us - to put anybody - on an eternal barbeque is absolutely repugnant to ethics of the people who wrote 90% of your bible.

Magus55

Part of the point of God is Justice, but part of God's nature also includes love and Mercy. God could have easily left humanity to try and earn their way to Heaven, but knowing full well they would fail, He provided a way that can get them to Heaven. But its based on His Grace and Merit, not ours.

I wouldn't want salvation to be earnable, cause then I'm kinda screwed. I know I can't reach perfection without God.

Its not handed out arbitrarily. Its offered to everyone. Its just up to the human to accept it.

Why stunned? I think its a logical argument to conclude that imperfection can't achieve perfection on its own. Perfection, however, can transform imperfection to perfection. How is that stunning or amazing? You may see it as admirable to try and reach that point on your own, but its losing battle, so why is there harm in asking for help?

Yes, I am aware that it feels good. But I can't earn salvation on my own, so why try?