J-D

What you mean by 'creation of a historical Jesus' and what Toto meant by it are too different things.

What you mean is 'addition of purportedly historical material about a putative Jesus to a pre-existing narrative of a supernatural Christ in order to give it the appearance of historicity'. This, if it happened (as you assert), must obviously have happened at some point before the canonical version of the Gospels was established.

What Toto meant was 'attempt to reconstruct a supposed historical account of Jesus by means including scrutiny of the canonical Gospel accounts in an effort to eliminate elements thought to be later ahistorical accretions to an original historical core', and I don't see on what basis you would dispute what Toto says about when the first such attempts were made.

J-D

'It may well be' is not the same as 'It is the case'. When you say 'It may well be', it is you, ironically, who is talking about what is possible/plausible. If all the supernatural elements are removed from the New Testament, how does one decide that Mary and Joseph are not real persons.The people who have criticised your logic on this thread have pointed out specifically what they believe to be the flaws in your logic. If the people who say your logic is excellent can show what is wrong with these criticisms, tell us about it. Their unsupported opinions don't carry weight.So? Even if there aren't any real HJers, that doesn't prove that you're right. You're disregarding the third possibility again.

mens_sana

They don't have to be called Joseph or Mary if that bothers you so. But if you are going to reject the Virgin Birth, then the other more natural alternative is the standard set of male and female parents. Hence, a HJ will have HParents.

As you have automatically mythologized him?

So speaks the betrayed believer who swallowed the Christian Grand Tour that is Acts and now rejects everything. This weird argument is based upon two assumptions: 1) that Jesus did something that would have caught the notice of the authorities, and 2) that documents would have survived. Acts is theological literature that spins the glory of Christ's Kingdom as it marches to the center of the world. Without Acts, all you've got is Pliny and Tacitus. That's about right when the movement was so small the authorities didn't even bother chasing the membership after chopping the leader.

Probably not, but even so, that does NOT mean there was no HJ. Most of the Iliad is implausible, but there was still a Troy and a Trojan War.

mens_sana

Hear, hear! I ran across a criterion of "accidental information" somewhere. The inscription with the list of priestly courses, one of which moved to Nazareth, that was found in Caesarea falls into that one.


Ummm, a guess: his mother? his wife? (Sorry 'bout that. The debbil made me do it!)

aa5874

I think I understand your position. You are of the opinion that Jesus may or may not have existed. All possisibilities of existence or non-existence should be looked at before any one can come to a conclusion. And even if one comes to any conclusion, there is a possibility that the conclusion is false.

Is that your view? I hope I got it right.

J-D

Then why did you assert something different?If he didn't exist, then he didn't have a biological father (obviously). But if he did exist, then he must have had a biological father.If the NT says that Jesus did not have a biological father, then the NT is wrong about that. You know this.

J-D

Not exactly, but I think it's probably close enough for the purposes of the current discussion.

aa5874

I was hoping that you would have stated your position exactly, anyhow, seeing that you have stated that my observation of your view is close, I will proceed to my next point.

Although from a theoretical or logical standpoint, your postion may be correct, would you agree that it is not practical or not standard practice to investigate all possibilities of a matter to come to a conclusion?

For example, if a person is found dead in the USA and deemed to be strangled, and we estimate that there are 150 million adults, then from logics, we can say that there are 150 million possible adult suspects. And if we estimate devoting 10 hours to investigate each possibility, then we have 1.5 billion hours of investigation, not a very practical proposition.

It is far more practical, and less time consuming, to develop a profile by examining the crime scene and analysing the evidence collected, in that way, millions of the initial logical possibilities are eliminated.

Now, in my investigation of the historicity of Jesus, after examining the NT, I find that Jesus fits a mythological, or should I say a fictional profile. His pre-existence, birth, life on earth, ressurection and ascension all fit this mythological/fictional model.

My hypothesis regarding the mythological/ fictional model is this: If Jesus is a myth or fictional, then no 1st century historian would have written anything historical about him. This appears to be true, in fact, there are no anecdotal, mythological, or historical episodes of Jesus from any extra-biblical 1st century source, not even a rumor. And besides this, we have reason to believe that certain writings were tampered with to make Jesus appear to have lived in the 1st century.

This finding, no rumors, no anecdotes, no mythical and no historical episodes, also apply to his followers and his teachings in the 1st century.

Jesus fits the fictional model perfectly. My investigation is practicall over.

Now, if you use your logical possibilty approach, you may or may not come to my conclusion, but without even knowning the population of the Jewish region and surrounding area, in the 1st century, you have many many possibilities to deal with.

jgibson000

Actual resurrection scenes?? Does Price cite the exact places within the novels he adduces where empty tomb stories and resurrection scenes occur?

And again, what is the date of writing of these novels?

Jeffrey Gibson

Huon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus..._and_his_death

Aegeus, one of the primordial kings of Athens, found a bride at Troezen, a small city southwest of Athens, in Aethra, daughter of Troezen's king, Pittheus. On their wedding night, Aethra waded through the sea to the island Sphairia that rests close to the coast and lay there with Poseidon (god of the sea, and of earthquakes). By the understanding of sex in antiquity, the mix of semen gave Theseus a combination of divine as well as mortal characteristics in his nature; such double fatherhood, one father immortal one mortal, was a familiar feature of Greek heroes.

Of a supposed Parnassos, founder of Delphi, Pausanias observes, "Like the other heroes, as they are called, he had two fathers; one they say was the god Poseidon, the human father being Cleopompus." (Description of Greece x.6.1).