Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 07-01-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Papias, Bishop of Hieropolis
. . In this, Papias assures us,
on the authority of his admirer Bishop Irenaeus, that he "had
immediately learned from the Evangelist St. John himself," that:
"the Lord taught and said, That the days shall come in which vines
shall spring up, each having 10,000 branches, and in each branch
shall be 10,000 arms, and on each arm of a branch 10,000 tendrils,
and on each tendril 10,000 bunches, and on each bunch 10,000
grapes, and each grape, on being pressed, shall yield five and
twenty gallons of wine; and when any one of the Saints shall take
hold of one of these bunches, another shall cry out, 'I am a better
bunch, take me, and bless the Lord by me.'" . . .

The following article gives some remarkable insight into Papias drawing upon a theme that originated previously with Jewish/Greek thought. . .

Quote:

. . . The preceding observations lead me to venture the following hypothesis.

Although Papias' chiliastic apocalypse draws for the greater
part on traditions current in Jewish apocalyptic, the motif of the
bunches asking to be picked and eaten is a reminiscence of the
self-presentation of foods originally belonging to the parodies of
the myth of life under Kronos, and subsequently employed in descriptions
of all sorts of "utopian" regions (Lower World, Persia, India,
the Islands of the Biest, and so on). Of course, there is no reason
to suppose that the author of the apocalypse handed down by Papias
was himself acquainted with descriptions of Kronos' reign or with
any of the passages mentioned above. The evidence rather suggests
that in the first Century A.D. the idea of food offering itself to
be eaten had become a stock element in the account of utopian lands
and that, äs a commonplace in such descriptions, it could easily
slip into the picture of the kingdom of Christ owing to the fact
that the fantastic abundance of the millennium resembled very much
that of various utopian lands in Hellenistic populär Imagination. . .

BOTRYC BOHCEI. The Age of Kronos and the Millennium in Papias of Hierapolis

show_no_mercy · 07-01-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Papias also calls James a disciple of the Lord. (and sticks the very brother of Jesus in among Philp,Thomas, John and Matthew and the other disciples)

I don't recall any James in the list of the 12 disciples.

Papias is yet another Christian who doesn't seem to have any idea that this James was supposed to be the brother of Jesus.

James bar Zebedee brother of John is included in all the synoptic lists of the twelve disciples/apostles. He is clearly intended to be a diferent person from James the brother of Jesus. According to Acts James bar Zebedee was executed by Herod in the early 40's CE.

Andrew Criddle

I wonder why Papias doesn't think that the "lord's brother" was a source for sayings. Maybe "the lord" didn't have a brother during Papias' time period?

Steven Carr · 07-02-2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Papias also calls James a disciple of the Lord. (and sticks the very brother of Jesus in among Philp,Thomas, John and Matthew and the other disciples)

I don't recall any James in the list of the 12 disciples.

Papias is yet another Christian who doesn't seem to have any idea that this James was supposed to be the brother of Jesus.

James bar Zebedee brother of John is included in all the synoptic lists of the twelve disciples/apostles. He is clearly intended to be a diferent person from James the brother of Jesus. According to Acts James bar Zebedee was executed by Herod in the early 40's CE.

Andrew Criddle

I was going by O'Connell's scholarship on Papias which is what this thread was about.

He claims the James of Papias is the same James as in Galatians, and that Papias was using the list of disciples as found in John's Gospel.

dog-on · 07-02-2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

... and there it seems to remain...

What if the gospel "according to Mark" (markon) is actually the gospel "according to Mark" (markion)?

Mark is a reaction to something. His portrayal of the apostles being somewhat contrary to the portrayal given in anti-marcionite literature like Luke/Acts, for example.

The portrayals of the disciples/apostles in Mark as originating from the view of these same figures in Galatians, (the Marcion connection), seems to be a viable solution.

Solo · 07-02-2009, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Papias also calls James a disciple of the Lord. (and sticks the very brother of Jesus in among Philp,Thomas, John and Matthew and the other disciples)

I don't recall any James in the list of the 12 disciples.

Papias is yet another Christian who doesn't seem to have any idea that this James was supposed to be the brother of Jesus.

James bar Zebedee brother of John is included in all the synoptic lists of the twelve disciples/apostles. He is clearly intended to be a diferent person from James the brother of Jesus. According to Acts James bar Zebedee was executed by Herod in the early 40's CE.

Andrew Criddle

James, the son of Alpheus, is also one of the twelve. While in Catholic traditions (after Jerome, I believe) this James is thought of as the brother of the Lord, the Protestants in general distinguish between James, the son of Alpheus and James the Just.

Jiri

Steven Carr · 07-02-2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

James bar Zebedee brother of John is included in all the synoptic lists of the twelve disciples/apostles. He is clearly intended to be a diferent person from James the brother of Jesus. According to Acts James bar Zebedee was executed by Herod in the early 40's CE.

Andrew Criddle

James, the son of Alpheus, is also one of the twelve. While in Catholic traditions (after Jerome, I believe) this James is thought of as the brother of the Lord, the Protestants in general distinguish between James, the son of Alpheus and James the Just.

Jiri

O'Connell is a Catholic, of course. Perhaps that explains his putting James, the brother of Jesus , in a list of the 12 disciples.

arnoldo · 07-02-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Just a small remark. 10,000 in greek is a myriad, and could be understood as "a great quantity". That remark does not change much the story, however.

Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps of more importance than the quantity for 1- 2nd century readers of this account would be how this picture of abundance contrasts with the written account of the desolation of Israel (symbolically portrayed by the barren fig tree in earlier gospel accounts).

sschlichter · 07-03-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

You will notice that exactly zero of the Church fathers, including Papias, were Jewish (save those depicted in the NT). I think early Christains borrowed Judiasm to create their own epistemology.

Or borrowed Judaism because anything "new" was seen with extreme suspicion. Once latched onto Judaism, Christians could claim that their religion was just as old or older than the pagan religions.

This seems to bring us back to Marcion...

To the first point.

Who is it that you consider a church father and how did you manage to filter out the Jews from that list? The statement assumes that christianity was founded in the 3rd century. Jesus was Jewish, all the apostles, Paul. the topic of the rejection of Christ by the Jews is covered by Paul and the gospels.

to the related 2nd point,

What was the motivation to borrow from something that was despised by Romans? Why borrow from what was viewed as a clannish, dis-trusted religion / culture?

~Steve

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