Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elijah · 04-07-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentleexit

As for being a "god" - if you believe in "guiding spirits" (your daemon) then it is logical that the great have greater guides. Socrates too had a daemon guide, presumably a great one.

The extent to which this was a "being" as opposed to part of your soul or a higher soul inducing your soul differed with the writer and audience. Plotinus focused on soul - later men, wrote as if daemons were lofty neighbors.

This interplay of "god-soul" and "man-soul" caused problems for the Christians. Did Jesus' "god-soul" replace his "man-soul" and if so, when? Or did he always have both - it's a mystery!

Not to take this off topic but (I think) you were supposed to look back at some platonic texts and see if these concepts could be understood rationally. Did you ever get around to that? Are you understanding Socrates Daemon as the voice in your head that we all have or something supernatural/superstitious. Are the daemons memes manifesting in the mind's of men or supernatural entities?

Where are you getting the god soul/man soul duality from?

steve_bnk · 04-07-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristMyth

Why wasn't Socrates deified?

Because according to Constantine "Socrates critical questioning ... menace to the state".

Here is the citation from Robin Lane-Fox.

Quote:

Constantine's Orations to the Saints

At p.646/7 Fox suggests that Constantine's Oration to the Saints
was authored and orated by Constantine "at Antioch, Good Friday, 325".
Most ancient historians are today convinced that Constantine
both authored and read aloud this "document" in 324/325 CE.
It contains a number of novel social and political insights,
and a whole string of fraudulent misprepresentations:

(1) Berates the philosophers: "Socrates critical questioning ... menace to the state".
"Pythagoras had stolen his teaching from Egypt, Plato believed there were many gods."
"Plato strived for the unknowable ... wrote about a first and second God."

[Editor: When critical questioning is a menace to the state there's a problem.
When military supremacists edict for the destruction of the writings
of leading present and past academics (eg: Porphyry, Arius, Apollonius of Tyana)
by book burning, it is a clear and unambiguous signal (from modern history)
that we are dealing with a malevolent dictator, a megalomaniac with a big army.]

(2) Berates the poets as worse than the philosophers;
because "poets wrote falsely about the gods".
FOX: "In a few broad sweeps, Constantine had damned
the free use of reason and banished poetic imagination."

Wasn't Socrates charged with corrupting the morals of the youth by teaching his method of agrument? Aristotle was on the run a time or two wasn't he?

gentleexit · 04-07-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentleexit

As for being a "god" - if you believe in "guiding spirits" (your daemon) then it is logical that the great have greater guides. Socrates too had a daemon guide, presumably a great one.

The extent to which this was a "being" as opposed to part of your soul or a higher soul inducing your soul differed with the writer and audience. Plotinus focused on soul - later men, wrote as if daemons were lofty neighbors.

This interplay of "god-soul" and "man-soul" caused problems for the Christians. Did Jesus' "god-soul" replace his "man-soul" and if so, when? Or did he always have both - it's a mystery!

Not to take this off topic but (I think) you were supposed to look back at some platonic texts and see if these concepts could be understood rationally. Did you ever get around to that? Are you understanding Socrates Daemon as the voice in your head that we all have or something supernatural/superstitious. Are the daemons memes manifesting in the mind's of men or supernatural entities?
Where are you getting the god soul/man soul duality from?

The duality - Monophysitism vs its alternatives. The fifth century dispute - the final Christ debates.

I think Socrates' daemon and what is meant by such a "being" gets down to "Soul". Soul in pieces - higher and lower - and soul interacting with other souls, particular those above. Soul seeks to rise up (return home etc.) and principles above provide aid. Now if the concept of soul is superstitious then so is considering this interaction. But if it can be considered rationally then ...

As for Platonic texts and a rational concept of Daemon - definitely not off topic - I've only dabbled. I still need to collect and collate the quotes that show Daemon as separate (walking, talking being) vs as higher soul, a place in a series of emanation (more akin to "force fields" for want of better), Daemon as the metaphor of a philosopher grappling with existence vs Daemon, the specter in the night.

Elijah · 04-08-2009, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentleexit

The duality - Monophysitism vs its alternatives. The fifth century dispute - the final Christ debates.

Got it. God’s “soul” was confusing me.

Quote:

I think Socrates' daemon and what is meant by such a "being" gets down to "Soul". Soul in pieces - higher and lower - and soul interacting with other souls, particular those above. Soul seeks to rise up (return home etc.) and principles above provide aid. Now if the concept of soul is superstitious then so is considering this interaction. But if it can be considered rationally then ...

I’m not sure how you understand the soul; I understand the soul as just the non physical observer. As far as the higher and lower aspects of the soul, for me that is related to the divide between what the soul observes, with the higher focused on the spiritual elements and the lower focused on the material/bodily aspects. If you focus on the higher/spiritual aspects you develop the habit to face that direction mentally naturally which diverts you from worldly problems and can help create a timeless mental state. Not sure about the souls interacting with other souls; would need to see what you are referencing.

Quote:

As for Platonic texts and a rational concept of Daemon - definitely not off topic - I've only dabbled. I still need to collect and collate the quotes that show Daemon as separate (walking, talking being) vs as higher soul, a place in a series of emanation (more akin to "force fields" for want of better), Daemon as the metaphor of a philosopher grappling with existence vs Daemon, the specter in the night.

I think daemons are usually more akin to memes and force fields usually gods, even though both are effective elements in the universe. The distinction between daemon and god can be difficult as seen in the Love is a daemon bit in Plato’s symposium. God/s generally seem to be more constant and less knowable then daemons.

Though Socrates’ personal Daemon is the voice in his head that I think we should all be familiar with. He was just more aware of it like, CS Lewis’s Screwtape letters or the saying “when the student is ready the teacher will appear” instead of thinking the voice is the real him.

Thanks for researching this! Let me know (feel free to PM) if you find something that you don’t think can be interpreted rationally.

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