Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 12-10-2009, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Pythagoras
Pythagoras
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SYNOPSIS
Melvyn Bragg and guests Serafina Cuomo, John O'Connor and Ian Stewart discuss the ideas and influence of the Greek mathematician Pythagoras and his followers, the Pythagoreans.

The Ancient Greek mathematician Pythagoras is probably best known for the theorem concerning right-angled triangles that bears his name. However, it is not certain that he actually developed this idea; indeed, some scholars have questioned not only his true intellectual achievements, but whether he ever existed.

We do know that a group of people who said they were followers of his - the Pythagoreans - emerged around the fifth century BC.

Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss what we do and don't know about this legendary figure and his followers, and explore the ideas associated with them. Some Pythagoreans, such as Philolaus and Archytas, were major mathematical figures in their own right.

The central Pythagorean idea was that number had the capacity to explain the truths of the world. This was as much a mystical belief as a mathematical one, encompassing numerological notions about the 'character' of specific numbers. Moreover, the Pythagoreans lived in accordance with a bizarre code which dictated everything from what they could eat to how they should wash.

Nonetheless, Pythagorean ideas, centred on their theory of number, have had a profound impact on Western science and philosophy, from Plato through astronomers like Copernicus to the present day.

Serafina Cuomo is Reader in Roman History at Birkbeck College, University of London; John O'Connor is Senior Lecturer in Mathematics at the University of Saint Andrews; Ian Stewart is Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at the University of Warwick.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p693b

(And Plato was a Pythagorean...)

More and more I am understanding xianity as an oriental cult that was and is a very efficient vacuum cleaner of ideas that get pulled together in a wondrous rag bag of stuff, an emporium of delights.

Some aspects of it did lend itself to gaining real political power, probably for human emotional reasons.

The cross should be understood as a mathematical symbol, wondrously marinaded with ideas of life and death and sin and salvation.

The little story in John of the number of fishes is a critical clue.

Dump the xian view of history - that is xianity's self serving story of itself. Islam plays the same game.

Look at the real continuing co-evolution of Greek, Roman, Carthagian, Egyptian, Persian, Buddhist, Chinese and Jewish thinking. Xianity is obviously an evolutionary result of this wondrous marinade.

Quote:

Newton was the last magician

show_no_mercy · 12-10-2009, 06:16 AM

Pythagoras had to exist. How could Einstein figure out Relativity based on the findings of an imaginary person?

gurugeorge · 12-10-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Look at the real continuing co-evolution of Greek, Roman, Carthagian, Egyptian, Persian, Buddhist, Chinese and Jewish thinking. Xianity is obviously an evolutionary result of this wondrous marinade.

I agree, Christianity did have something to please everybody. That in itself leads one to suspect, on first encounter with it (so to speak) that it's a deliberate invention (e.g. Mountainman's idea); or perhaps it was a minor Jewish cult that was picked up that already had some suitable features, but was expanded along eclectic lines because the Romans wanted a universal religion to help unite the empire.

Why a Jewish-based religion? There was a fair amount of respect in the ancient world for the antiquity of the Jewish religion, so something based on that wouldn't seem like it had been created out of the blue.

I think there must be something to this, but I don't think it was created out of whole cloth (as per MM's idea); I think there's enough evidence to show that it was its own minor cult, that it originated and developed on its own for quite some time - but that it was taken up by the authorities as suitable, and that it began to be groomed as a universal religion (so to speak) some time between the second and third centuries, is more of a plausible idea.

Iskander · 12-10-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Pythagoras
Pythagoras
LISTEN:
Availability:
Sorry, this programme is not available to listen again. (why?)
Last broadcast today, 09:00 on BBC Radio 4 (see all broadcasts).
Next On:
Today, 21:30 on BBC Radio 4
SYNOPSIS
Melvyn Bragg and guests Serafina Cuomo, John O'Connor and Ian Stewart discuss the ideas and influence of the Greek mathematician Pythagoras and his followers, the Pythagoreans.

The Ancient Greek mathematician Pythagoras is probably best known for the theorem concerning right-angled triangles that bears his name. However, it is not certain that he actually developed this idea; indeed, some scholars have questioned not only his true intellectual achievements, but whether he ever existed.

We do know that a group of people who said they were followers of his - the Pythagoreans - emerged around the fifth century BC.

Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss what we do and don't know about this legendary figure and his followers, and explore the ideas associated with them. Some Pythagoreans, such as Philolaus and Archytas, were major mathematical figures in their own right.

The central Pythagorean idea was that number had the capacity to explain the truths of the world. This was as much a mystical belief as a mathematical one, encompassing numerological notions about the 'character' of specific numbers. Moreover, the Pythagoreans lived in accordance with a bizarre code which dictated everything from what they could eat to how they should wash.

Nonetheless, Pythagorean ideas, centred on their theory of number, have had a profound impact on Western science and philosophy, from Plato through astronomers like Copernicus to the present day.

Serafina Cuomo is Reader in Roman History at Birkbeck College, University of London; John O'Connor is Senior Lecturer in Mathematics at the University of Saint Andrews; Ian Stewart is Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at the University of Warwick.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p693b

(And Plato was a Pythagorean...)

More and more I am understanding xianity as an oriental cult that was and is a very efficient vacuum cleaner of ideas that get pulled together in a wondrous rag bag of stuff, an emporium of delights.

Some aspects of it did lend itself to gaining real political power, probably for human emotional reasons.

The cross should be understood as a mathematical symbol, wondrously marinaded with ideas of life and death and sin and salvation.

The little story in John of the number of fishes is a critical clue.

Dump the xian view of history - that is xianity's self serving story of itself. Islam plays the same game.

Look at the real continuing co-evolution of Greek, Roman, Carthagian, Egyptian, Persian, Buddhist, Chinese and Jewish thinking. Xianity is obviously an evolutionary result of this wondrous marinade.

Quote:

Newton was the last magician

Thanks, Cliverdurdle for explaining the mathematical origin of Christianity and the life of Pythagoras.

I note that Pythagoras preceded the imaginary numbers – the number of fish in john was real!!! --and that may very well explain the vitality of Christianity.

A scientific Christianity based on the properties of the real numbers with Plato and Newton as apostles.

You have converted me, no more most senseless posts in my life.

Back Again · 12-10-2009, 02:42 PM

This is a bit off topic but the Pythagoreans were reported to be the keepers of secret numeric "truths", some of which could reveal their failure to explain the world. Revealing these secrets could even be punishable by death. Among them *gasp* was that the diagonal length of a unit square (considered to be a perfect geometric shape) could not be expressed as a ratio of whole numbers (ie the square root of 2 is an irrational number). It really just proves that you can form a very serious cult around the dumbest of concepts.

aa5874 · 12-10-2009, 05:15 PM

It would appear that Justin Martyr, writing in the middle of the 2nd century, thought that the doctrine of Pythagoras and others were part of the "evolution" of the Christian doctrine.

This is Justin Martyr in "Dialogue with Trypho" 2

Quote:

"I will tell you," said I, "what seems to me; for philosophy is, in fact, the greatest possession, and most honourable before God, to whom it leads us and alone commends us; and these are truly holy men who have bestowed attention on philosophy.

What philosophy is, however, and the reason why it has been sent down to men, have escaped the observation of most; for there would be neither Platonists, nor Stoics, nor Peripatetics, nor Theoretics, nor Pythagoreans, this knowledge being one.

I wish to tell you why it has become many-headed.

It has happened that those who first handled it [i.e., philosophy], and who were therefore esteemed illustrious men, were succeeded by those who made no investigations concerning truth, but only admired the perseverance and self-discipline of the former, as well as the novelty of the doctrines; and each thought that to be true which he learned from his teacher: then, moreover, those latter persons handed down to their successors such things, and others similar to them; and this system was called by the name of him who was styled the father of the doctrine....

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

It must be noted that Justin Martyr did NOT appear to be aware of the doctrine of Jesus or the doctrine of a philosopher called Paul up to the time he encountered the old man.

Justin Martyr did not once refer to anything from the Gospels or Epistles before his conversion, but seemed fully aware of the Pythagoreans, the Stoics, Peripatetics, Platonists and the Theoretics before he was converted.

It would therefore be likely that belief in God preceded Jesus and his believers possibly by thousands of years, if not hundreds of years.

ApostateAbe · 12-11-2009, 10:47 AM

Clivedurdle, can you please briefly explain to me the reasoning behind your tentative conclusion that Pythagoras did not exist, if you are serious about that?

Clivedurdle · 12-11-2009, 10:52 AM

It is a serious proposition made in by academics. Other academics reported it in the Radio programme.

ApostateAbe · 12-11-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

It is a serious proposition made in by academics. Other academics reported it in the Radio programme.

OK, personally, do you think it is more likely that Pythagoras existed or that he didn't exist?

bacht · 12-11-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Thanks, Cliverdurdle for explaining the mathematical origin of Christianity and the life of Pythagoras.

I note that Pythagoras preceded the imaginary numbers – the number of fish in john was real!!! --and that may very well explain the vitality of Christianity.

A scientific Christianity based on the properties of the real numbers with Plato and Newton as apostles.

There are still some people who believe that mathematics is the highest truth, rather than just being another language for describing the universe. Numerology is alive and well, and many forms of gambling are based on numbers.

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12-10-2009, 06:16 AM	#2
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Pythagoras had to exist. How could Einstein figure out Relativity based on the findings of an imaginary person?

12-10-2009, 02:42 PM	#5
Back Again Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Detroit Metro Posts: 705	This is a bit off topic but the Pythagoreans were reported to be the keepers of secret numeric "truths", some of which could reveal their failure to explain the world. Revealing these secrets could even be punishable by death. Among them gasp was that the diagonal length of a unit square (considered to be a perfect geometric shape) could not be expressed as a ratio of whole numbers (ie the square root of 2 is an irrational number). It really just proves that you can form a very serious cult around the dumbest of concepts.

12-11-2009, 10:47 AM	#7
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Clivedurdle, can you please briefly explain to me the reasoning behind your tentative conclusion that Pythagoras did not exist, if you are serious about that?

12-11-2009, 10:52 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It is a serious proposition made in by academics. Other academics reported it in the Radio programme.

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