Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 01-30-2012, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

What it boils down to is that the New Testament uses five words to describe the suspension of the NT Jesus: the noun σταυρός, and the verbs σταυρόω, κρεμάννυμι, προσπήγνυμι, ἀναιρέω, ἀνασταυρόω.

The issue here is that the present-day church definitions do not match the secular society and street definitions of the day.

The implication here is that the NT Jesus, who is presented as an historical person therein, not just the mythical child of a ghost, was subjected to a regular Roman Crucifixion, despite gLuke and Acts saying right out he was crucified by the Jews. And the way the Romans usually did it, was they suspended someone from a gallows shaped like a "T" and provided him a kind of a projecting seat (acuta crux, sedile, cornu) to support him with. But once he's on the seat, he ends up impaling / screwing himself. Sorry, there's no way to say it that isn't rude.

Thanks, la70119, for the clarification of the issues re crucifixion. Putting the christian ideas aside - what remains re Roman crucifixion is whether, giving JC a 'life' for a minute or two, the sedile had a spike in it.

Crucifixion

Quote:

Ancient sources also mention the sedile, a small seat attached to the front of the cross, about halfway down,[26] which could have served a similar purpose. A short upright spike or cornu might also be attached to the sedile, forcing the victim to rest his or her perineum on the point of the device, or allow it to insert into the anus or vagina.[11] These devices were not an attempt to relieve suffering, but would prolong the process of death. The cornu would also add considerably to the pain and humiliation of crucifixion.

Interesting - but since the gospel JC was not historical no more than that. As to Roman crucifixion - survival was possible - re the friend of Josephus who survived crucifixion.

As to the issue of whether it was the Jews or the Romans who did the deed - again, if the gospel story is not historical - its purely a debating issue.

However, if that gospel JC crucifixion is based upon a historical event - if there is a historical model which has been drawn upon, then perhaps the issue can become clearer.

I've posted many times re Antigonus - one thread asking if Antigonus was that historical model. Run with the idea for a moment: Herod the Great gives the Roman Marc Antony a great deal of money to have Antigonus killed. So, Rome is the hired assassin. That, if Josephus is to be trusted, is history. Now, take that history and work it into a pseudo-historical story that one is creating. Who gets the blame for the crucifixion? It could go either way depending upon ones creativity in devising plot structure. Of course, both the hired assassin and the conspirator are guilty of crime. So, the Romans did it - and in the NT the Jews did it. But don't be taken in by the storyline, the symbolic recreation. It is Herod the Great who was the conspirator. That is the Jew, the Herodian Jew, that paid for the death of Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, in 37 b.c. Yep - read gJohn in that light also - clever stuff going on right under our noses - Jews? read Herodian Jews and things can begin to look very different....

Before Antigonus was beheaded, he was tied to a whipping post, with or without crossarm (Cassius Dio doesn't say which, he uses σταυρῷ = to a post or type of 'cross') and brutally scourged.

And the Gospel of Peter has Herod Antipas ordering Jesus to be crucified, and soldiers under him carry it out.

And it isn't just the death of Antigonus that the Christians got their ideas from.

There is also another historical event which is the funeral of Julius Caesar. During the services his body was laying in his a modelled after the temple of venus Genetrix, he was surrounded with wooden columns made from poles. Of course, that meets one of the definitions of σταυρόω (fence in with pales but poles will do). At the same time there is a wax image of his body, modelled complete showing the 23 stab wounds, attached to a cruciform frame of a tropaeum, that is, a cross. Obviously a mannekin does NOT need an impaling spike to stay on its cross! Julius caesar, I might add, was accused of wanting to make himself king and he was already made pontifex maximus (greatest high priest) of the Roman state religion.

The third source of inspiration was Homer's Odysseus where the protagonist and his crew have to sail through a waterway past the sirens. Odysseus has his crew stop up their ears with wax and tie him to the mast of the boat, so that they won't hear the Sirens and steer toward them and crash their ship on the rocks. And yes, they resist the Sirens and keep a safe distance from the rocks in the waterway. Now, boats back then had a strong beam in the bottom of the boat to keep the mast secure, to keep it from tipping over. This, of course, would serve as Odysseus' suppedaneum (foot rest).

I'm sure there's more.

Come now - of what interest to the gospel writers could your examples be?
Why look outside ones own history when that history can serve ones purpose re storytelling so well. Paul's Jesus was of Jewish stock - flesh and blood. Story yes indeed. But a story seeking to root itself in Jewish history. OK, mythology knows no bounds and those searching for imports don't have to look very far in the JC story. However, to take a Jew away from Jewish history is to take a step away from the OT itself. That, methinks, is a step too far, a step no Jew would take. Yes, the gospel story is a mixture - mythology, theology - and pseudo-history. Pseudo-history that has it's resonance within Jewish history.

Step 1 - Jewish history.
Step 2 - Salvation 'history' - re-created in Paul's cosmic savior. A New intellectual Heaven.
Step 3 - The gospel pseudo-historical birth narratives and wonder-doer ministry of JC. The New Earth. Miracles and healing. Arcadia.

(The JC crucifixion being a backward glance at what made possible the philosophical/theological rethink. A rethink that became necessary following the death of Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews. Of course, no value in the death of Antigonus. But allow that crucifixion imagery to become a symbol of a spiritual/intellectual 'salvation' and it's a new spiritual/intellectual dawn that beckons).

Don't get caught out skipping Step 1. Without a grounding in history, intellectual theorizing is nothing but a floating abstraction. Imagination and speculation have their place - but they are easily sidelined by reality. 'Paul', whoever he was, would have got nowhere by just coming up with the latest in visions. His 'visions', his insights, had to have relevance to some reality if they were to be viable. In a Jewish context - the primary reality is Jewish history.

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 07:55 AM

The authors of the Jesus story have SHOWN how they fabricated their Jesus story. They primarily used Hebrew Scriptures which were considered to be the WORD of God.

Mark 13:30 KJV

Quote:

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass , till all these things be done .

Matthew 26:56 KJV

Quote:

But all this was done , that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled .

The authors have shown that ALL that was DONE by Jesus is based on so-called Prophecies in Hebrew Scripture NOT actual history.

The story of the crucifixion of Jesus had NOTHING at all to do with Antigonus.

Matthew 27:35 KJV

Quote:

And they crucified him.......... that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet....

It was so-called Prophecies, NOT history, why the story of the crucifixion was written.

Let us NOT waste anymore. All that was DONE by Jesus was found in Hebrew Scriptures, the Word of God, and that is PRECISELY why Jesus was called the WORD of God that was made Flesh.

Jesus was historicised from Hebrew Scriptures, the WORD of God.

John 1.

Quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

Jesus is Prophetic History.

Doug Shaver · 01-30-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

That is what Christians have said ever since Eusebius's time. I'm surprised you're so willing to take their word for it.

I am surprised that you agree with Eusebius that Paul wrote Epistles before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

What I believe about Paul has nothing to do with anything Eusebius or any other early Christian said about him.

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

That is what Christians have said ever since Eusebius's time. I'm surprised you're so willing to take their word for it.

I am surprised that you agree with Eusebius that Paul wrote Epistles before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

What I believe about Paul has nothing to do with anything Eusebius or any other early Christian said about him.

What!!!! The claim that Paul wrote Epistles to the Churches by Eusebius and early Christians has NOTHING to do with what you Believe about Paul??

We know that there are NO DATES for the Composition of the Pauline letters found in the letters themselves so you MUST have come to your BELIEFS about Paul based on Eusebius, early Christians and Acts of the Apostles whether directly or indirectly.

The Pauline writer NEVER claimed he wrote any Epistles Before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

It was APOLOGETIC Sources that that claimed Paul wrote letters to Churches before c 70 CE.

la70119 · 01-30-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Before Antigonus was beheaded, he was tied to a whipping post, with or without crossarm (Cassius Dio doesn't say which, he uses σταυρῷ = to a post or type of 'cross') and brutally scourged.

And the Gospel of Peter has Herod Antipas ordering Jesus to be crucified, and soldiers under him carry it out.

And it isn't just the death of Antigonus that the Christians got their ideas from.

There is also another historical event which is the funeral of Julius Caesar. During the services his body was laying in his a modelled after the temple of Venus Genetrix, he was surrounded with wooden columns made from poles. Of course, that meets one of the definitions of σταυρόω (fence in with pales but poles will do). At the same time there is a wax image of his body, modelled complete showing the 23 stab wounds, attached to a cruciform frame of a tropaeum, that is, a cross. Obviously a mannekin does NOT need an impaling spike to stay on its cross! Julius caesar, I might add, was accused of wanting to make himself king and he was already made pontifex maximus (greatest high priest) of the Roman state religion.

The third source of inspiration was Homer's Odysseus where the protagonist and his crew have to sail through a waterway past the sirens. Odysseus has his crew stop up their ears with wax and tie him to the mast of the boat, so that they won't hear the Sirens and steer toward them and crash their ship on the rocks. And yes, they resist the Sirens and keep a safe distance from the rocks in the waterway. Now, boats back then had a strong beam in the bottom of the boat to keep the mast secure, to keep it from tipping over. This, of course, would serve as Odysseus' suppedaneum (foot rest).

I'm sure there's more.

Come now - of what interest to the gospel writers could your examples be?
Why look outside ones own history when that history can serve ones purpose re storytelling so well. Paul's Jesus was of Jewish stock - flesh and blood. Story yes indeed. But a story seeking to root itself in Jewish history. OK, mythology knows no bounds and those searching for imports don't have to look very far in the JC story. However, to take a Jew away from Jewish history is to take a step away from the OT itself. That, methinks, is a step too far, a step no Jew would take. Yes, the gospel story is a mixture - mythology, theology - and pseudo-history. Pseudo-history that has it's resonance within Jewish history.

Step 1 - Jewish history.
Step 2 - Salvation 'history' - re-created in Paul's cosmic savior. A New intellectual Heaven.
Step 3 - The gospel pseudo-historical birth narratives and wonder-doer ministry of JC. The New Earth. Miracles and healing. Arcadia.

(The JC crucifixion being a backward glance at what made possible the philosophical/theological rethink. A rethink that became necessary following the death of Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews. Of course, no value in the death of Antigonus. But allow that crucifixion imagery to become a symbol of a spiritual/intellectual 'salvation' and it's a new spiritual/intellectual dawn that beckons).

Don't get caught out skipping Step 1. Without a grounding in history, intellectual theorizing is nothing but a floating abstraction. Imagination and speculation have their place - but they are easily sidelined by reality. 'Paul', whoever he was, would have got nowhere by just coming up with the latest in visions. His 'visions', his insights, had to have relevance to some reality if they were to be viable. In a Jewish context - the primary reality is Jewish history.

You forget the writings of Paul, who gives a very sketchy outline of the accomplishments of Christ Jesus. But his letters precede the gospels by some several decades, save gJohn 18, according to the dating of extant manuscripts and fragments.

Here is what Paul says about the life of Jesus Christ:

Romans 1

Quote:

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David

Galatians 4

Quote:

4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law

First Corinthians 11

Quote:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Phillipians 2

Quote:

6 Who, being in very nature_[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature_[b] of a servant_[+], being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross_[*]!

[a][b] or form
[+] or slave
[*] σταυροῦ = of a pale, pole or cross.

First Corinthians 15

Quote:

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

aa5874 is absolutely right on this, maryhelena. They went to to the so-called prophecies FIRST to come up with their mythos. Then they mined history, myths and legends, both Jewish and Greco-Roman, to flesh out and historicize their mythos.

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

You forget the writings of Paul, who gives a very sketchy outline of the accomplishments of Christ Jesus. But his letters precede the gospels by some several decades, save gJohn 18, according to the dating of extant manuscripts and fragments....

Please do not propagate rumors about the Pauline writings. There are NO dates supplied in the Pauline writings for their composition and No non-apologetic source made mention of a Jesus Christ that was accepted by the Jews as a Human Sacrifice or made mention of a Jesus that was crucified in the Sub-Lunar.

There is absolutely ZERO on Paul in the Canon except in Acts, a work of fiction, and 2 Peter, an admitted forgery, and even Apologetic sources did NOT account forPaul and the Pauline writings.

There is NO credible evidence anywhere in all antiquity that a writer called Saul/Paul wrote any Epistle before the Jesus story was PUBLICLY known and circulated in antiquity.

maryhelena · 01-30-2012, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Before Antigonus was beheaded, he was tied to a whipping post, with or without crossarm (Cassius Dio doesn't say which, he uses σταυρῷ = to a post or type of 'cross') and brutally scourged.

And the Gospel of Peter has Herod Antipas ordering Jesus to be crucified, and soldiers under him carry it out.

And it isn't just the death of Antigonus that the Christians got their ideas from.

There is also another historical event which is the funeral of Julius Caesar. During the services his body was laying in his a modelled after the temple of Venus Genetrix, he was surrounded with wooden columns made from poles. Of course, that meets one of the definitions of σταυρόω (fence in with pales but poles will do). At the same time there is a wax image of his body, modelled complete showing the 23 stab wounds, attached to a cruciform frame of a tropaeum, that is, a cross. Obviously a mannekin does NOT need an impaling spike to stay on its cross! Julius caesar, I might add, was accused of wanting to make himself king and he was already made pontifex maximus (greatest high priest) of the Roman state religion.

The third source of inspiration was Homer's Odysseus where the protagonist and his crew have to sail through a waterway past the sirens. Odysseus has his crew stop up their ears with wax and tie him to the mast of the boat, so that they won't hear the Sirens and steer toward them and crash their ship on the rocks. And yes, they resist the Sirens and keep a safe distance from the rocks in the waterway. Now, boats back then had a strong beam in the bottom of the boat to keep the mast secure, to keep it from tipping over. This, of course, would serve as Odysseus' suppedaneum (foot rest).

I'm sure there's more.

Come now - of what interest to the gospel writers could your examples be?
Why look outside ones own history when that history can serve ones purpose re storytelling so well. Paul's Jesus was of Jewish stock - flesh and blood. Story yes indeed. But a story seeking to root itself in Jewish history. OK, mythology knows no bounds and those searching for imports don't have to look very far in the JC story. However, to take a Jew away from Jewish history is to take a step away from the OT itself. That, methinks, is a step too far, a step no Jew would take. Yes, the gospel story is a mixture - mythology, theology - and pseudo-history. Pseudo-history that has it's resonance within Jewish history.

Step 1 - Jewish history.
Step 2 - Salvation 'history' - re-created in Paul's cosmic savior. A New intellectual Heaven.
Step 3 - The gospel pseudo-historical birth narratives and wonder-doer ministry of JC. The New Earth. Miracles and healing. Arcadia.

(The JC crucifixion being a backward glance at what made possible the philosophical/theological rethink. A rethink that became necessary following the death of Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews. Of course, no value in the death of Antigonus. But allow that crucifixion imagery to become a symbol of a spiritual/intellectual 'salvation' and it's a new spiritual/intellectual dawn that beckons).

Don't get caught out skipping Step 1. Without a grounding in history, intellectual theorizing is nothing but a floating abstraction. Imagination and speculation have their place - but they are easily sidelined by reality. 'Paul', whoever he was, would have got nowhere by just coming up with the latest in visions. His 'visions', his insights, had to have relevance to some reality if they were to be viable. In a Jewish context - the primary reality is Jewish history.

You forget the writings of Paul, who gives a very sketchy outline of the accomplishments of Christ Jesus. But his letters precede the gospels by some several decades, save gJohn 18, according to the dating of extant manuscripts and fragments.

Here is what Paul says about the life of Jesus Christ:

Romans 1

Quote:

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David

Galatians 4

Quote:

4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law

First Corinthians 11

Quote:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Phillipians 2

Quote:

6 Who, being in very nature_[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature_[b] of a servant_[+], being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross_[*]!

[a][b] or form
[+] or slave
[*] σταυροῦ = of a pale, pole or cross.

First Corinthians 15

Quote:

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

aa5874 is absolutely right on this, maryhelena. They went to to the so-called prophecies FIRST to come up with their mythos. Then they mined history, myths and legends, both Jewish and Greco-Roman, to flesh out and historicize their mythos.

And just what is Jewish prophecy about? Salvation history! I'm afraid that one can't get away from Jewish history. One does not start off in the air - with 'Paul'. One only gets up there, to intellectual philosophizing, by first taking cognizance of reality. Once one does that, then it's party time. Dress up ones intellectual creations with pseudo-history, with prophecy and mythology. One has to have a starting point in reality - not a flight of pure fantasy. That is, if one wants to deliver anything with meaning for living life on terra-firma.

As to 'Paul'. Same boat as JC, a literary creation. Most probably an early and a late 'Paul' - two traditions that have been fused into the figure of 'Paul' that we now have in the NT. The 'Paul' that got his vision from no man and the 'Paul' that was the last of the apostles. Have a look at a previous thread for some points re 1.Cor. 15.

The case for interpolation in 1 Cor 15

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....04#post6907604

Doug Shaver · 01-31-2012, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Pauline writer NEVER claimed he wrote any Epistles Before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

Would you believe him if he had?

andrewcriddle · 01-31-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Pauline writer NEVER claimed he wrote any Epistles Before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

Would you believe him if he had?

I think an explicit claim to be writing before the destruction of the temple would be widely disbelieved.

Andrew Criddle

la70119 · 01-31-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

You forget the writings of Paul, who gives a very sketchy outline of the accomplishments of Christ Jesus. But his letters precede the gospels by some several decades, save gJohn 18, according to the dating of extant manuscripts and fragments....

Please do not propagate rumors about the Pauline writings. There are NO dates supplied in the Pauline writings for their composition and No non-apologetic source made mention of a Jesus Christ that was accepted by the Jews as a Human Sacrifice or made mention of a Jesus that was crucified in the Sub-Lunar.

There is absolutely ZERO on Paul in the Canon except in Acts, a work of fiction, and 2 Peter, an admitted forgery, and even Apologetic sources did NOT account forPaul and the Pauline writings.

There is NO credible evidence anywhere in all antiquity that a writer called Saul/Paul wrote any Epistle before the Jesus story was PUBLICLY known and circulated in antiquity.

According to Duke University, the earliest manuscripts of the Pauline writings precede those of Acts.

Modern-day scholars, both sceptical and evangelical, hold to the opinion that Paul's letters were written BEFORE Acts was. The internal evidence seems to supports this. In the letters, Paul bad-mouthed the leadership of the Jerusalem Church, at least sometimes, and he writes from the perspective of a free man. In Acts, he is brought on board as a cooperative subordinate (although his accounts of his apparitions contradict each other, he is caught by devout Jewish men for letting a goy into the Jews-only area of the Temple, James doesn't come to his defense, and gets himself rescued by the Roman authorities, to save himself).

(From Wikipedia) The genuine Pauline epistles are dated late 2nd Century or 3rd century CE (i.e., 175-225 CE, avg = 200 CE) whereas Acts is 250 CE.

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