lulay

...being 'born again' means that you feel born again after havining ingested hallucinogenic inspirationa' 'plant'

forGEt about the materialsitcally-bias culture's denigration of the 'hippies' and all the cynical BS you've heard since whenever that have clouded your judgment, and have you going round and round in absurd literalist mazes that really are just a pile of words at end of the day

try and get yer heads round ancient ways of feeling

actually those ways of feeling are NOW. the awe is still NOW. time is weird. are you with me. we have to step out of historical time.

being born again includes that

spin

H-e-y buddy, pass the joint. What were you sayin'? Never mind. I'll agree. Just pass the joint. Oh yeah, I know how them ancients were feelin'. They had a real grasp on themsells. Thanks, buddy, aahh, now what was I sayin'? Oh yeah, their judgments, real clouded. H-e-h-e-y, real cynical BS. Ya what? I'm not hoggin' it. Just wait on. Aahh. I needed that. Here ya go. An' ya know what? I'm steppin' outa historical time. Time goes all funny. The world seems fuzzy. I'm definitely out of it NOW. Ticking away, minutes that make up a dull day. . . Ya know what? I'm floatin'. No more time. My body's. . . It's like, umm. . . bein', you know, born again. I need another t-o-k-e, otherwise I'm gonna fall down an' land in the middle of all that materialistic crap. Aww c'mon. Don't let me down. Come through for me. Don't hold out on me, man. Don't bogart that joint. . . Yeah, right. Aaaahhh. When are ya gonna come down? When are you gonna land? Should have stayed on the farm. Should have worn flamboyant spectacles. I feel like bein' reincarnated in a lizard. Ya know the ones with the big eyes that just blink at you. They're real cool. Sittin' on that rock in the sun. A born agin lizard. Hehey, lizards don't have to suffer all this verbal BS that goes aroun'n'aroun' making all them literalist mazes that really are just a pile of, umm, words at end of the day. Hey, buddy, whereya goin? Come back. Where's the good dope? Buddy? Oh, dang. Guess I'm jus' livin' ina material world.


spin

lulay

haha...i can tell you are familiar with that...it's also funny read out loud with a Jack Nichoslson accent...which i did.

but, listen up. i can see the funny side, and i am looking through your cynical 'expose'

what has happened---and much of this ploy has been cleverly manipulated by the clve manpulators is....the descralization of deep experience

the desacralization of deep experience--especially as inspired hallucinogenically

do you now see the patter, don't know if you are familiar with the shamanistic scholar Mircea Eliade? Well, he for most of his life was of the opinion that the archaic use of hallucinogens by shamans was a 'decadent' phase coming after non-drug techniques. apparently late in his life he changed his opinion
point i am making is is that when he WAs dismissive of hallucinogenic inspiration, he yet wrote about the 'desacralization' of Nature by Western culture

He is not the only noteworthy researcher to see this

is it any surprise therefore that such an ancient experience which can afford the experiencer a deep sense of interelation with Nature--being 'born again' should ALSO come under the desacralizing hammer?

taboo doesn't just mean 'not speaking about'...it can also mean 'not speaking about for fear of ridicule' etc. this makes sure that the status quo is maintained and not threatened

lulay

i must also qualify what i mean BY desacralization also?....as brief as i can
i am aware that the 'sacred' was separated from the 'profane'...this split--in the West happened with the Orphics. they created a doctrine that had mankind split between the 'Titanic'/'bad' and the 'Dionysos'/'good'...and thus split 'heaven' from 'earth' 'spirit' from 'nature/body'......ok? so when i say sacred, i am not meaning that. i mean a deeper understanding than that split

spin

My problem is that you don't know how ancient people felt. We have just too much trouble working out what they thought. We only have a few written texts. This is a very small window into a lost world. Eliade wasn't looking through that window, but at observable phenomena. Such musings might be fine for attempting to grapple with those observed phenomena, but what do they have to do with our ancients? Who knows? Who can say? No-one.

Stick to the facts because they're all we have.


spin

lulay

"My problem isa is that we dont know how ancient people felt....."

Yes it is your problem because you wont eneter into the ahistorical dimension, i feel you are caught up in the present myth of 'there can only be historical time'....can you not see that this is a myth?

thisnk of the Australian Aboriginees. They have a sacred ritual called Dreamtime. This is an actual experiential entering of sacred time of the ancestors--organic time.
IF they had the modern scientific notion of time, why they'd say fuk that shit, get a beer and watch the match. know what i mean?

We are NOt different from our ancestors emotionally. what has happened is that the transition to 'head' from 'body' has seriously damaged our health--'health' meaning 'whole'

spin

This isn't what I said. So you're now crapping on:

Can you see that you have no means of discerning what is or is not a myth except through the mores of what our society say are myths (and those mores have interesting lacunae).

As I have consistently said, we are dealing with literature and must treat it as such. This means that there is a high level of abstraction not found in non-literate societies. This is a consequence of literacy. One is able to maintain more abstraction because it can be commited to an external record and the mind is freer to work with more abstraction, while preserving abstraction in writing.

Literature doesn't imply the old true/false dichotomy, for there are many other variations. What is or is not myth is not divulged through literature. If it were you wouldn't have a solely literary means of knowing. You need indications which are outside the literature to give you a perspective. We only have the texts.

Is this sort of expression Eliade's mysticism? Something is sacred only to the eyes of those who adhere to the cult of its sacredness.

I don't think you partake in their "entering of sacred time of the ancestors--organic time", yet, at the same time, I don't gather you "say fuk that shit, get a beer and watch the match."

How would you know?

So you are saying that we are "different from our ancestors emotionally" here aren't you? Or are you saying, "not emotionally, but integrally"? If there is such "serious(..) damage", then that will affect us emotionally, nez pas?

I'm a great one for demystification. Wool is being pulled over our eyes in every direction. Our emotions are being mystified. Our rationality is being mystified. Our responsibilities are being mystified. Our lives are mystified generally. And the mystifiers are our families, our governments, our media, our keepers of values, our culture.


spin

Chili

We are not different emotionally but we do have an advanced civilization to maintain and they don't. In fact, they don't even have a game to watch by our standards and dreamtime is not exactly where 'it is at' because "it is an evil age when old men [do] have dreams" . . . for dreaming is impossible when heaven and earth have become one.

lulay

Yes, myths are stories. and they are of course multilayered......they are stories we live by...the medieval one--the theocracy--was about the church doctrine. stuck to it like twin was state. the myth gave the church power through state control

our myth is to do with science, which is its foundation, and it TOO is stuck to the state......Thomas Szasz terms it the 'pharmacracy' in that it has replaced religious control with medical control. hence the myth that NOw there is no 'spirit' but merely matter and 'mind' and we are basically biochemical machines.
hence ...anything goes wrong 'mentally' we run off to the shrink or doctor and get 'medication' to 'cure' it. people believe in this myth, like they did about theocratic indoctrination. to question is unthinkable for many people. it's a given. THAt paradigm

THAt is the mystification. You've heard of Edward Bernays no doubt? He was a nephew of Sigmund Freuds, and used his theories to create a 'secret' propaganda machine which manipulated the 'masses' to consume products they didn't wat. through his 'myth-making' he incited women to smoke!

All that manipulation, and people not even realizing it. He was playing with people's 'irrational desires'

you assume we cant understand our ancinet ancestors' emotions? why..in universal terms, even by historial linear time, it is very brief from then to now. i regard the overall increase of so-called 'mental illness' is donw to our emotional distress faced with the mechaized myth we are 'oppressed in. think about it..spin. how many people depressed would balme the very paradigm? like i said, the manipulating mystifiers like it that way

hallucinogenic experience sees THROUGH it. that is why they are feared so much. not just in our time, but through a long period of our history. they create an independence--at least psychologically from any dominanyt myth

HOWEVER......under the wrong circumstances they can be used in a negative way. for example, if amanpulating mindset may use them to brainwash. not just with hallucinogens, but any highy excitory state can give the space to implant shcismic beliefs.

so its not as though myth is wrong. it depends what it is...how deep is its understanding. does it separate us from Nature, each other. our very being from our bodies

lulay

yes we are maintaining a monster. do you know how many hundreds of tones of depleted uranium the USA and UK have dropped onto people and countryside in Afghanistan and
Iraq..? check it out. that nuclear shit is polluting the land, water, soil, is causing genetic deformity, cancer, and its life is millions of years...that's just a part of this 'advanced' civilization. what we NEED is more DEEPER dreaming. cause at the mo we are all wide eyed zombies on prozac. the STATE's drug...not heard anyne jump on that whilst i've been here....!