Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 01-20-2013, 08:12 PM

Quote:

You assert "There is no factual information in these texts."
I respond with the texts report on the Euroclydon. Do you address it at all?
No you do not, you just totally blow off and avoid the FACT that this text reports the fact of the existence and danger of this very real mariners hazard.
Any ancient traveler having read this text, and contemplating undertaking a similar voyage at that time of the year, would have been forewarned of the dangers of such an undertaking.
It is both factual and useful information whether you are willing to admit to it or not.

Is there any other well known and widely distributed ancient text providing this important seafarers information? Anywhere?

I have not been able to locate any such. Have you?

Please provide us with your well known references.

Don't dodge addressing these questions,

Still dodging.

Onias · 01-20-2013, 08:45 PM

Just because there was a mariner's hazard in the Med does not authenticate any of Paul's fables. . . unless you believe by faith alone.

Sheshbazzar · 01-20-2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Just because there was a mariner's hazard in the Med does not authenticate any of Paul's fables. . . unless you believe by faith alone.

I do not believe Paul's fables. That however does not entail that "There is no factual information in these texts."

Again Onias

Is there any other well known and widely distributed ancient text providing this important seafarers information? Anywhere?

I have not been able to locate any such. Have you?

Please provide us with your well known references.

aa5874 · 01-20-2013, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Nice how you only give attention to only what you wish.

You assert "There is no factual information in these texts."
I respond with the texts report on the Euroclydon. Do you address it at all?
No you do not, you just totally blow off avoid the FACT that this text reports the fact of the existence and danger of this very real mariners hazard.
Any ancient traveler having read this text, and contemplating undertaking a similar voyage at that time of the year, would have been forewarned of the dangers of such an undertaking.
It is both factual and useful information whether you are willing to admit to it or not.

Is there any other well known and widely distributed ancient text providing this important seafarers information? Anywhere?
I have not been able to locate any such. Have you? Please provide us with your well known references.

Don't dodge addressing these questions, it is dishonest.

Did you ever even consider the possibility that portions of these ancient writings may have been simple and straightforward accounts of the real events in peoples actual lives, that were latter adopted, embellished, and added onto by latter editors?
No obviously not. <edited>

Well, guess who wrote about being shipwrecked on his way to Rome??

It is so easy and predictable!!!

Flavius Josephus.

And guess when it happened to Josephus??

It is so predictable!!

About the same time as Saul/Paul.

Josephus and others helped to SAVE all six hundred just like everyone was saved in Acts of the Apostles as Paul predicted.

And why did Josephus go to Rome??

To plead a case before the Emperor Nero

Paul had a case to answer before Nero in Acts.

Life of Flavius Josephus

Quote:

3. But when I was in the twenty-sixth year of my age, it happened that I took a voyage to Rome, and this on the occasion which I shall now describe.

At the time when Felix was procurator of Judea there were certain priests of my acquaintance, and very excellent persons they were, whom on a small and trifling occasion he had put into bonds, and sent to Rome to plead their cause before Caesar

These I was desirous to procure deliverance for, and that especially because I was informed that they were not unmindful of piety towards God, even under their afflictions, but supported themselves with figs and nuts. (4)

Accordingly I came to Rome, though it were through a great number of hazards by sea; for as our ship was drowned in the Adriatic Sea, we that were in it, being about six hundred in number, (5) swam for our lives all the night; when, upon the first appearance of the day, and upon our sight of a ship of Cyrene, I and some others, eighty in all, by God's providence, prevented the rest, and were taken up into the other ship.

And when I had thus escaped, and was come to Dieearchia, which the Italians call Puteoli, I became acquainted with Aliturius, an actor of plays, and much beloved by Nero, but a Jew by birth; and through his interest became known to Poppea, Caesar's wife, and took care, as soon as possible, to entreat her to procure that the priests might be set at liberty. And when, besides this favor, I had obtained many presents from Poppea, I returned home again.

The abundance of evidence suggest that the Pauline story is bogus and was LIFTED from the writings of Josephus.

Sheshbazzar · 01-20-2013, 09:29 PM

Could well be. but the Euroclydon is still the Euroclydon. Does Josephus mention the Euroclydon? That really would be one hell of a literary coincidence.

edit. A bit of searching turned up that Josephus does indeed write of a "black North wind" (wonder how that phrase is rendered in the Greek text?) in the 9th chapter of the Wars of The Jews. Haven't yet determined if it refers to the same area and wind described in the NT. (just never comfortable with jumping to conclusions ya know)

I do not hold that these stories are accurate or 'all of a piece' and I have stated before that I believe that they were 'stitched together' from various ancient sources, some of which could well have been taken from actual accounts of travelers. (not necessarily any actual 'Paul')

Clivedurdle · 01-20-2013, 11:39 PM

I think Androcles is very important here but not sure how....

Onias · 01-21-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Just because there was a mariner's hazard in the Med does not authenticate any of Paul's fables. . . unless you believe by faith alone.

I do not believe Paul's fables. That however does not entail that "There is no factual information in these texts."

Again Onias

Is there any other well known and widely distributed ancient text providing this important seafarers information? Anywhere?

I have not been able to locate any such. Have you?

Please provide us with your well known references.

What is the relevance of these questions? Please elaborate.

Stormy seas can afflict anybody, as they did to Josephus' seafaring tale, but they do not in any way validate Paul's tall tales.

Sheshbazzar · 01-21-2013, 02:20 PM

No. but this validates that apart from miracles, there is other factual information to be found within in these texts.

I find Acts 5:1-11 to be a quite credible account of a days work in extortion, murder, and terrorism. (slightly whitewashed)

Toto · 01-21-2013, 02:26 PM

Sea voyages:

By Land and By Sea: The We-Passages and Ancient Sea Voyages

aa5874 · 01-21-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No. but this validates that apart from miracles, there is other factual information to be found within in these texts.

I find Acts 5:1-11 to be a quite credible account of a days work in extortion, murder, and terrorism. (slightly whitewashed)

What?? Acts is credible apart from the fiction!!!

Acts 5.1-11 is utter fiction--Never happened and could not have happened as described.

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01-20-2013, 08:45 PM	#32
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	Just because there was a mariner's hazard in the Med does not authenticate any of Paul's fables. . . unless you believe by faith alone.

01-20-2013, 09:29 PM	#35
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Could well be. but the Euroclydon is still the Euroclydon. Does Josephus mention the Euroclydon? That really would be one hell of a literary coincidence. edit. A bit of searching turned up that Josephus does indeed write of a "black North wind" (wonder how that phrase is rendered in the Greek text?) in the 9th chapter of the Wars of The Jews. Haven't yet determined if it refers to the same area and wind described in the NT. (just never comfortable with jumping to conclusions ya know) I do not hold that these stories are accurate or 'all of a piece' and I have stated before that I believe that they were 'stitched together' from various ancient sources, some of which could well have been taken from actual accounts of travelers. (not necessarily any actual 'Paul')

01-20-2013, 11:39 PM	#36
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I think Androcles is very important here but not sure how....

01-21-2013, 02:20 PM	#38
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	No. but this validates that apart from miracles, there is other factual information to be found within in these texts. I find Acts 5:1-11 to be a quite credible account of a days work in extortion, murder, and terrorism. (slightly whitewashed)

01-21-2013, 02:26 PM	#39
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Sea voyages: By Land and By Sea: The We-Passages and Ancient Sea Voyages

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