Jedi Mind Trick

Let's say they were real,
How do we know that they died for what later became "orthodox" teaching? Did they actually believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus? Did they believe in the Deity of Jesus? All we may know is that they died for their faith, but what exactly was their faith? Yes we have their alleged writings, but... :huh:
The assumptions Christians make are that the disciples were:
1) Real people.
2) Preached the same message as Christians do today.
3) And Died for it.

Any one of these can, and have been called into question.

As for how far people will go with what they believe:
Sabbati Sevi (Jews continued to believe in him even after he became a Moslem)
Jim Jones (cool aid)
Branch Davidians (Fire)
Heavens Gate (killed themselves over a friggin comet)

Crucifiction

Indeed. People can and DO die all the time for lies; especially if they believe them to be real.

Diogenes the Cynic

Leaving aside the fact that there is no good evidence that they even existed much less that they "died as criminals," I think your statement (along with this "martyr" argument in general) makes a false presumption that there was anything voluntary about anyone dying for Jesus. It's not like they had any choice in the matter. Why assume they welcomed being executed? How do you know they didn't scream like little girls while they were being killed? How do you know they didn't renounce Jesus? Who would report it?

Not that I believe that any of Jesus' direct followers were ever martyred. Those perscuted in Rome were not witnesses of anything, just converted true believers.
Why would people believe in ghosts or UFOs or Indra if it wasn't true? This isn't exactly a persuasive point. People beleive all kinds of crap that isn't true.
It's kind of not remotely proven that they did any such thing.
You forgot option 3, which is that the miracles were invented long after the crucifixion by people who never met Jesus and never met anyone else who ever met Jesus. We do not have any eywitness accounts of Jesus whatsoever, not a single word.
No it isn't.
What Bible are you referring to? The Tanakh existed.

I don't see what your point is anyway. The Heaven's Gate cult died voluntarily for a belief based on their "life experiences." So did Jonestown. So did the Branch Davidians. So what?

Chili

I think Stephen was charity who must have died in giving life to resurrection, Peter was faith and was suddenly exposed when all doubt was removed and Phillip was the hope that beauty would return.

Clutch

"People wouldn't die for lie".

"Nobody would confess to a crime s/he didn't commit".

"People don't just instantly abandon long-held principles".

Just a few fairly common false generalizations about human psychology. They gather some plausibility from the consideration of a few simple and straightforward cases, but when situations are not simple or straightforward, such generalizations are often inaccurate.

Claims like ichabod crane's:

... are of course sincere but carry little weight. People frequently behave in ways that confound our simplified and idealized folk-psychological model of agency.

Vorkosigan

Perhaps you guys should look into the Lubavitchers and Rebbe Schneerson. Scheerson has passed since this article was written, but many of his followers believe that he is the messiah and will return, though he specifically denied that he would. His death has not abateed this feeling. The result has been a schism in the Lubavitcher movement that Schneerson headed. The situation looks a lot like early Christianity. Do you think his followers are liars?

Another good example is Wovoka, the Paiute messiah who started the Ghost Dance religion among native Americans.

• "James Mooney, of the Bureau of American Ethnology (BAE), interviewed Wovoka two years to the day after his vision and described the 1890 Ghost Dance prophet as a "tall, well-proportioned man with piercing eyes, regular features, a deep voice and a calm and dignified mien. He stood straight as a ramrod, spoke slowly, and by sheer projection of personality commanded the attention of any listener. He visibly stood out among his fellow Indians like a thoroughbred among a bunch of mustangs." Wovoka's English name, Jack Wilson, was taken from the family name of the original settlers of Mason Valley: David and Abigail Wilson. The young Paiute was raised on the Wilsons' ranch and developed a close friendship with their sons. It was while cutting wood for a mine the Wilsons owned in Pine Grove that Wovoka had his vision. Exposure to the Wilsons' frontier brand of Presbyterianism, which included prayers before meals and daily Bible readings as well as "saddlebag preachers" who conducted revivalistic camp meetings, presumably influenced both the form and ideology of the 1890 Ghost Dance in Nevada. For example, an Indian agent reported that "at least 200 Indians to say nothing of the squaws and papooses [who] turned out yesterday [on the Walker River Reservation] in the face of a driving snow storm to see and hear him ... took up a collection of $25 for his benefit ... and they talk of nothing but Jack Wilson and the miracles he performs."[

Many of the people who listened to his Ghost Dance religion would later die in confrontations with the US Army. Did they die for a lie?

A second problem is that of the early "martyrdoms" nothing is known. The death of Stephen is apparently a literary fiction, and no one knows how the other apostles died. The claim that they were martyred does not tell us anything about how they died, whether they went as believers or apostates, or even who martyred them. I have always found that vast silence rather suspicious, as if Peter and Paul and others were martyred not by Rome or Jews but by fellow Christians.

A third problem is Magus55's claim that Jesus performed miracles in front of his disciples. Most of the miracles, at least those in Mark, the earliest gospel, appear to be literary creations. Thus, there is no good evidence that Jesus performed miracles in front of his followers. Even if he had not, there is ample evidence (see Schneerson, for example, or Mother Teresa) that miracle traditions grow quickly and attributions of miracles can occur in ones own lifetime even when one denies it.

A fourth problem is that yes, people do die for things they know are nonsense, when that nonsense becomes incorporated into and foundational to their social identity. People chose to die for very complex reasons whose entirety is not accessible to their own minds.

Vorkosigan

Jedi Mind Trick

Vorkosigan, could you recheck the Lubavitchers link? it did not work for me.

rlogan

Actually, the "accomplishments" of Jesus in this regard are rather pathetic.

In his lifetime he didn't really get anyone to do much of note relative to others.

The Reverend Jim Jones got about 900 people to kill themselves. Heaven's gate. Solar temple. Etc.


Many of the beliefs people have died for are mutually exclusive. We cannot therefore discern what is truth on this basis.

Vorkosigan

Hmmm...worked for me! But if you search Schneerson on the net, you'll find lots of fascinating stuff.

Prester John

What about Judas, or doesn't he count?