Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Because the first step in the process is admitting that you're a sinner and are in need of a Savior. That begins the inner change. Un-believers won't do that, so they can't be made fit in God's eyes. They still carry sin. They can't be found blameless.

Apparently some "un-believers" will do that, or else there would be no believers.

So you have to take the antidote and wait for it to work its magic? But, in the meantime, God knows that you've taken the medicine and can thus magically complete the process if you should die before the cure is complete?

It still seems that God could work his magical cure in toto on anyone if he so chose. If he can magically cure the corrpution and sin still present in an "imperfect" believer, why can't he do the same in a non-believer? Your answer seems to not be that he can't, but that he won't.

God's power and sovereignty eminate (sp) through the universe, but God isn't actually standing on Earth. God can still follow His will and plan, making things happen on Earth and the Universe - but He isn't actually sitting in a bar doing it.

to the bar reference.

But you seem to have a very anthropomorphic vision of God - kinda like the old man with the white beard image, God sitting on his throne directing operations and gazing into his crystal ball to watch us all. A very Greco-Roman, Zeus kind of God, more than a transcendant, all-encompassing God.

Mageth

But not just by creating free will - by setting up a system that says "you have free will, but violating my will (or God's nature, or God's law) is sin and will be punished". Our will is not so free after all. And, indeed, one can argue that God created sin by creating the system that defines, allows, and punishes sin. Sin would not exist without "God's will" to be violated, after all.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Murder is unjustified and with malice. Killing isn't.

So "killing" is not unjustified and is without malice? I think you need to work on these definitions.

God had a just reason to cause the flood and it wasn't done with malice.

Actually, it's a myth, but let's not go down that path here...

How did God justify the "killing" of the many newborns, infants, toddlers, pregnant women, disabled, and mentally incompetent humans that were drowned in the flood right along with all those "evil" men and women? How about the animals that were killed? What justified their death?

No the mother isn't held to the same standard because she isn't perfect or supreme. And God governs all life. God gave life to everything in creation. God created the ability for life to exist. God allowed the mother to be a vessel to create life. God created humans in His image. God is the supreme ruler over life, not the mother.

Oh, I forget; God can kill whoever or whatever he damn well pleases; after all, he created and thus "owns" all life.

Some "justification", that.

ObiKenobi

Wow this is in stark contradiction to you and many other theists telling us before that we can never know god's plan. But its amazing how you now know his plan. So which is it now, we know god's plans or not?

case

This still doesn't explain why god should be able to kill almost every living thing on the planet and not, at the same time, be committing a sin. I'm not sure what the just reason would be for god to cause the flood. Human kind have done far worse since that time, and he has yet to repeat the performance. Even if he promised never to do it again, why did he need to do it in the first place? Why not just forgive everyone, and send them to bed with no supper?

No, instead he decided to kill them all. And not considering that a sin means that god is either not bound by his own rules, or is contradicting himself. To me, a diety that drowns the entire world might have some anger he needs to deal with. But it certainly doesn't strike me as the action of a perfect, sinless being. Frankly, drowning the planet strikes me as a bit malicious; and the fact that god promised he would never do it again seems to suggest that it might have been a bad idea in the first place.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
God gave life to everything in creation.

Tell me something, Magus. If you give your mother a birthday present, do you feel justified in taking the present away later, even if your mother objects?

Rhea

Maybe if she fails to compliment his new hair-cut...
(or worse yet! Fails to notice it!)

ObiKenobi

Well Magus I'd like to reask a question you never answered from another thread. If god is perfect like you claim how could he ever create "imperfect" beings as you claim humans are. If god always demands perfection then there would be no way he could have ever created something imperfect as he could never accept it, as it goes against his nature of perfection, which leads to the fact that either god isnt perfect or he isn't all powerful. Because if we were truly made in god's image we would logically have to be perfect as well and totally sinless, because if god never created sin then sin couldn't exist as nothing god didn't create could ever exist. So either god is unable to get rid of sin (as he is not ominpotent) or he just likes punishing us for his own mistake in creating us imperfectly (because he is therefore not perfect or he is a sadistic bastard).

Mentalepsy

Don't we then need to revise "seperation from God" to "seperation from God's influence?" If that is so, I see no reason why God can't continue extending his influence to those not allowed in his immediate presence (what exactly is God's "immediate presence," anyway?). If God can abide extending his power to sinners on Earth to prevent them from burning in agony, I don't see why he can't do the same for sinners in the afterlife.

atechnie

I also have a Book in which God - the REAL God - says that He doesn't care what happens to humans and, in fact, enjoys torturing them sometimes. That's why he threw in six point eight billion fake-Gods into the world; he likes seeing people graping at straws like that, only to realize, once they die, that there is a God but He isn't anything like what they imagined.

(He doesn't give access to The Book to anyone except me. See, I'm his daughter, and He made an exception with me.)

Therefore, I've just proved to you that your Christian God doesn't exist. Excellent!

Good day to you.

atechnie