jakejonesiv

In Revelation 12, we find a heavenly birth from a woman with unmistakeable astrological imagery.

Earlier, a question was asked, "Where did Mithras slay the bull?" This answer is obvious, the tauroctony is filled with astrological symbols, as David Ulansey demonstated in The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World .

The story of Mithras is a myth to explain the precession of the Equinoxes from Taurus to Aires. And the myth evolved into one of cosmic salvation. Is this concept really so hard to understand? Is anyone really so naive as to think that Mithras started out as an historical figure on earth who killed a real bull while a real scorpion attacked the bull's genitals?

So, if the story of Mithras was first seen in the heavens, why is it impossible to imagine for Jesus?

Jake Jones IV

jgibson000

Does Ulansey actually say that the "story" of Mithras slaying the bull was "first seen in the heavens"? And even if so, does that mean that those who "saw it" didn't believe that what they "saw" was a representation of something that had occurred on earth?

JG

jakejonesiv

Hi Jeffrey,

The precession of the equinoxes results in a slow movement of the spring equinox backward through the zodiac, moving through one constellation about every 2,160 years (25,920 divided by 12). When the Zodiac was first conceived, the spring equinox occurred with the sun in the constellation of Taurus, and the autumn equinox in the constellation of Scorpio.

In Graeco-Roman times, the spring equinox shifted from Taurus the Bull to Aires the Ram/lamb, and the autumn equinox from Scorpio to Libra. This fundamental shift in the supposedly unchangeable heavens was viewed in the Mithraic religion as Mithras slaying the bull of the Taurus constellation.

I don't see how one can start with "a representation of something that had occurred on earth" and have it "grow" into the Zodiac and the precession of the equinoxes. Both were observable to the ancients in the heavens and predated Mithraism. Can you explain?

Jake Jones IV

andrewcriddle

We have so little hard evidence about Mithras that it is difficult to be sure.

However IMHO the original (1st century CE) Mithras myth was not about the equinoxes however some 2nd century CE Platonists who were interested in that sort of thing reinterpreted it as being really about Astronomy.

Andrew Criddle

jakejonesiv

A summary of David Ulansey's view of Mithraism is here

Jake Jones IV

GakuseiDon

If you read back through my comments, you'll see that I've been saying that the events portrayed in the myths either happened on earth, or were allegorical, thus never occurred at all.

Are you saying that there was an upper world in which Mithras actually kills a bull? Or is this allegorical?

This is where, IMHO, Doherty is trying to have it both ways. But I'd be interested in your opinion. Doherty writes on p 105 of his book:

However, no Christian writer or hymnist expresses the view that the Christ myth is allegorical or symbolic. Paul seems to have very much believed in the divine Jesus' literal suffering at the hands of the demon spirits.

Did people believe that Mithras really killed a bull? If so, where? Or was it taken allegorically?

jakejonesiv

I don't think your theory holds water.

Did the early Christians believe that Jesus ascended and was really in heaven at the right hand of God?

According to your theory, they believed it either never happened or it was allegorical.

Please explain.

Jake Jones IV

GakuseiDon

Fair question, though the options are "the myths of the gods either happened on earth, or was allegorical thus never happened at all". (Actually the later category should be "allegorical/symbolic/just stories, so didn't literally occur").

These are stories like Mithras killing a bull, Attis being castrated, Osiris being dismembered, Christ being crucified. Doherty offers a third option: they actually took place in a "fleshly other dimension". This is what I believe can't be supported from the literature.

I think Christians of that time believed that Jesus literally ascended above the firmament into heaven, just as pagans believed some of their gods (like Hercules) did likewise. I'm not sure whether a literal belief in "the right side of God" existed though.

jakejonesiv

Hi GDon,

Thanks for the reply. We are starting to get somewhere now.

Let me tell you plainly what my concern is. I am not out to trap anyone or trip you up. I suspect that you have finely crafted a position to refute Earl Doherty, but when the same theory is measured against early Christian and Jewish beliefs of the same era, it fails. If that turns out to be the case, then perhaps you are unintentionally guilty of special pleading and your arguments against Earl Doherty and David Ulansey are considerably weakened. No offense intended.

To followup, I have a few more questions for you.

1. Did any early Christians believe that God was in heaven (e.g. Job 22:12)? Did they believe that God held forth, and that the sons of God and Satan came to present themselves before God, as is described in Job chapter 1?
   
2. Did early Christians believe that real spiritual entities existed?
   
3. If so, did early Christians believe that these spiritual entities inhabited, or had access to, realms other than our mundane earth, such as the underworld or the heavens?

Thanks,

Jake Jones IV

GakuseiDon

No problem at all. I'll glad to have these things questioned. But I can't help feeling that these are the types of questions that aren't being directed towards Doherty. Too many people seem to feel that to "grok" Doherty's theory is enough (I'm not really singling out Vork here, just that the term "grok Doherty's theory" struck to mind as representative of a lot of Doherty supporters)

In the views of the people of Paul's time: yes, I believe that to be the case.

I don't know to be honest, but it is a good question.

Yes.

From what I've read, good entities (angels) inhabited the heavens above the firmament, though could visit earth. Bad entities didn't inhabit the heavens, and lived mostly in the air and on the ground, around certain objects and places.