Kosh

....Is Sharon a descendant of David?

Secular Pinoy

Heh, except for Harold Kushner, I haven't seen any book by a Jew in the Religion section of the local bookstores here in Manila. When my current financial troubles are settled, I'll try to acquire that book or a similar book from Amazon.

Wayin

These links maybe of interest to you :

http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html#false

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/fa...h-concept.html

http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/j4j_no.html

http://www.aish.com/


well, thats me lunch break,
Wayin

Wayin

Your welcome... anytime.



Expendably yours,
Wayin

Koyaanisqatsi

A quick question about Daniel. The literal translation is "weeks" not "years." From where does one get the "years?"

mfaber

These are call "prophetic years" of 360 days each. Christians developed this because they can use this technique to "fit" Jesus into the verses in Daniel (if it "fits" Jesus in it MUST, therefore, be TRUE, seems to be the justification behind the prophetic years). Read about this bit of mental gymnastics HERE or HERE.

What the Jews say about the "prophetic years" HERE

How Christians mangle Daniel to suit themselves...........

Christians claim that there is a definitive messianic prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27. According to most Christian translations, it contains two direct references to the Messiah (Dan 9:25-26), which the Christians use to try and con us into believing are references to Jesus. "With the help of mistranslations and a little bit of mathematical hocus-pocus, they turn this passage into a prophecy that foretells the coming of Jesus and his crucifixion. "

Daniel 9:25"Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince,<===ERROR (Problem #1)
there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;<==ERROR(Problem #2)
the street[1] shall be built again, and the wall,[2]
even in troublesome times

Problem #1: The KJV reads "Messiah the Prince". However, the original Hebrew doesn't use the article "the" in front of the Hebrew word "mashiach" ("anointed one", "messiah", "prince", "king"). This makes a BIG difference because without the article "the", one is not taking about "THE MESSIAH", but only A"messiah" (anointed prince, leader). The word mashiach (messiah) is used NOWHERE in the Jewish scriptures as a proper name (i.e., the Messiah). This word is a title of authority of a king, prince, or high priest who are temporal and mortal (no divinity need apply).


Problem #2: The KJV ignores the Hebrew punctuation mark 'atnach which functions like a semicolon in the modern system of punctuation. In the Hebrew text there is an 'atnach separating the 7 weeks from the 62 weeks. It should not be translated as "7 weeks and 62 weeks", which Christians then add together to make 69 weeks. The Hebrew text is talking about TWO DISTINCT time periods of 7-day weeks, translated as follows:

----------------------------------

". . . until an anointed one, a prince, shall be 7 weeks; then for 62 weeks it shall be built again. . ." (Hebrew text)

***************NOT*************

". . . until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks AND 62 weeks, the street shall be built again . . ." (KJV)

----------------------------------

Christians compound this "literary license" by claiming without any foundation that these "weeks" are really years. Why do they claim "years" instead of weeks?===>so that they can claim that these verses in Daniel "prophesy" that "the Messiah" (the big "M") will come 483 years after the destruction of the First Temple (444 BCE).

However, if JC is supposed to have been crucified in 33 CE, then even claiming that each day equals a year overshoots that date!!! What some do, in an effort to "fix" the number of years is to claim, without Scriptural justification, that these are "prophetic years" of 360 days!!!!

My sources for the above are :
The correct reading of Daniel 9:25-6

Question: How can Christians apply the phrase v'ayn lo, "he has nothing" or "he shall have nothing" (Daniel 9:26) and Isaiah 53:12, where the suffering servant receives "a portion with the great," to Jesus? (NOTE: Didn't cover this one in the above)

Doctor X

Peter Kirby:

Oh yeah!! Starts digging out from under the references . . . Ummm . . . look you . . . ducks as a few more piles hit him. . . .

Seriously, great summary.

Frankly, I think I would be more convinced that a "Messianic Prophecy" exists in the OT that somehow appies to the NT if a single coherent chapter existed rather than individual quotes scattered about from different texts, from different times, with different contexts and intentions thrown to gether post hoc.

You list rather demonstrates this. Great job!

--J. "NO! Not LEVITICUS!!" D.

Doctor X

mfaber:

Kudos as well!

--J.D.

Secular Pinoy

Good exposition mfaber (or is it Koy? must be some vast evil atheist conspiracy). The NRSV translate that verse as:

Daniel 9:25 - Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.

Koyaanisqatsi

nevermind

I had posted a long deconstruction of Daniel proving it could not have in any way been talking about Jesus, but reallized after that it just doesn't matter.

Cult members will believe what they want to believe.