yalla

I think that the above might be referring to Macoby's POV as expressed in "The Mythmaker".
Eg. on p.107 " That Paul and Simon Magus were widely regarded as similar figures is shown by the fact that in cetain anti-Pauline documents, Paul is referred to under the code-name 'Simon Magus'."
The documents to which he refers are the Pseudo-Clementine writings and he cites the work of F.C.Baur.
cheers
yalla

Alf

The book Acts was most likely not written by Paul so whatever Acts claim that Paul said is not Paul's claim but the author of Acts' claim.

IOW: Paul cannot be claimed to be a liar based on whatever Acts says about him.

If you find a book of fiction where a character named George Bush claims the earth is flat you cannot claim that GWB is a liar because he says the world is flat. You might claim he is a liar based on things he has actually said but whatever that book claim he said is irrelevant.

I.e. whatever the book Acts claim about Paul is the author of Acts' claims, not Pauls. That author might be a liar though for claiming that Paul was in contact with a fictional character and claiming miracles etc. However, it is possible that the author simply heard it from others and he was gullible. I.e. he did not lie himself. If you call someone liar it implies not only that they say something that is not true but that they are intentionally attempting to deceive other people even though they know better. I don't believe the author of Acts knew any better, in his world miracles was a possible thing to happen so if someone said that Paul experienced a miracle that caused him to convert then that is what that author wrote down - without any intention of lying or deceiving anyone.

Alf

Alf

So what? Even if crucified he might still not make it into Josephus unless the events surrounding his crucifiction shed some light to the historical perspective that Josephus wanted to make. I.e. even if he really was crucified he might still not make it into Josephus and the references in josephus are fraudulent. I don't think stoning vs crucifiction has anything to do with it.

Alf

jakejonesiv

The starting point is the identification of the Marcionitische Rezension (MR) Katholische Rezension (KR).

It is here in Greek.

Jake Jones IV

aa5874

Please read my post again ! If you are implying that what you believe is true, then you are wasting my time. I need credible data to support your belief. Belief and reality should not be confused.
Miracles are not known to occur, now or 2000 years ago. I do not know if you are intentionally trying to deceive me or anyone else, but what credible data or corroboration do you have to show that miracles were possible 2000 years ago?

Chris Weimer

While it's nice to see his final product, it's still nothing without how he got there.

jakejonesiv

You been given the links. I'll try to give you an English summary when I have time.

In the meantime, here is a diagram of the timelines of the external witnesses of Pauline Epistles in the first and second centuries.

Note that the succession of Roman bishops (upper row) is not to be taken as a fact, but to compare with traditional timelines.
The middle row is the proto-orthodox.
The bottom row is the heretics.

Here it is diagram of

Color coding:
Red = Pauline epistles, Marcionite redaction (does not include pastorals)
Green = Paul is not known (if the gospels were in this diagram, they would be this color).
Olive = Paul is known but not the epistles (Apostelgeschichte means Acts of the Apostles.)
Blue = Both Paul and the epistles are known
Violet=Paul was known, but rejected


Justin and Aristide seem to quote Paul, but do not say whom they quote. This shows that they either quote a common tradition that was only later connected to Paul (in the catholic redaction!), or Paul was suspect to them as the heretics' apostle.

Three works supposedly witness to Paul in the eraly second century. 1 Clement, Ignatians, and Polycarp. 1st Clement can be seen as a Jewish writing (ca. 100 CE) of the Diaspora only lightly Christianized. The earlier version knew nothing of Paul.

The Ignatians are quite strange. At the core they are marcioite and mystery school. Strangely, the Ignatians are a copy cat of the Pauline material.

There is a strange parallelism between Ignatius and Paul. It is a story twice told.

1. Both have a series of forged epistles attributed to their
authorship.

2. Both have seven allegedly authentic epistles.

3. The allegedly genuine epistles of both are known in two
recessions. In the case of Paul it is the Marcionite and the Catholic recessions; in the case of Ignatius, the long and middle/shorter recessions. In both cases, it seems that the longer recessions contain interpolations of an earlier work.

4. Both are said to have received a death sentence, and traveled a long trip to Rome in chains to appeal. Nevertheless, both were surprising free to visit various churches along a circuitous route, and to have written multiple epistles at will along the way.

5. The deeds of both legendary figures are recorded in a narrative that is suspicious at best. Ignatius' story is told in "Martyrdom of Ignatius." Paul's story is included in the canonical "Acts of the Apostles".

6. Ignatius is known as "ho kai Theophorus" the God bearer. This is rather naively supposed to mean nothing more than Ignatius carries "Christ in his breast."

"Trajan answered, "And who is Theophorus?" Ignatius replied, "He who has Christ within his breast." The Martyrdom of Ignatius, chapter 2.
The point that I am making is that Ignatius is supposed to be "The Christ bearer" an equivalent to "The God bearer." (This is an advanced Christology; there is not a distinction between the two. Cf Smyrnaeans 10).

Paul is said to bear the marks of Christ in his body. "I bear in my body the marks (Greek:stigmata) of the Lord Jesus." Gal. 6:17.
And the even more graphic (and startling) is 2 Cor. 4:10, "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." According to _The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians_, chapter 6, Paul is anachronistically "The Christ Bearer."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/001/0010129.htm

7. The teachings attributed to both seem to have derived, at least in terminology, from the mysteries.

8. The Wild Beasts. Paul was alleged to fight wild beasts and survived. Ignatius one-ups Paul by being martyred by them.

Ignatius, in redaction, was a handy mouthpiece for retrojecting the emerging doctrines of the Roman Episcopate into the remote past. Smyrnans 8:1
Ephesians 6:1; Magnesians 2:1; 6:1; 7:1; 3:2;
Trallesians 3:1; Smyrnans 9:1.

Polycarp is dependant on the updated Ignatians, thus also
quite late.

Jake Jones IV