Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Laurentius · 09-22-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

"recitation" or "chanting" is probably the appropriate term.

I agree.
Oh, oops. This is the Koran reading not hip hop music thread.

wordy · 09-22-2007, 09:42 AM

Laurentius, this is not hip hop at all.

Your from Rumania. I've heard lament singing at funerals. One melody they used was very beautiful. Old LP rwcord from pre 1960 maybe. Alan Lomax recording on Columbia Records or Folkways. Smithsonian Institute maybe owns it now.

Lamentation at funerals are not ordinary singing either, it is a functional ritualistic expression to help people mourn. To set the emotions maybe. To give a public example or sanction, that it is ok to cry out loud that one are missing the dead person.

The Call to Prayer I linked to are also a formal example, a functional expression. So singing is a word with other connotation. Sinful sexy singing, wailing as if your wanting something other than connection to God or Allah.

So I could understand why they don't want to say they sing. But they use melody so it is confusing they don't admit they actually sing.

Salam · 09-22-2007, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Salam, listen to this man:
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/calltoprayer.htm

He is calling us to the Friday prayer? Or maybe what they do five times a day maybe.

To me this is singing. Very good melody and he is good at singing it too.

I bet he fail to see it as him singing it. He recite it or read it maybe? But it obvious to me that it is a melody that he knows.

http://www.al-quran.ca/en_index.html

Compare with these 8 who do reads from a Sura. They read but use a kind of melody too. Some more than the others. The Koran being holy maybe they are more strict with melody while calling to prayer allow them to use more elaborated melodies.

Salam? If you ask a salafi who are very strict. Could some of them be so strict that they are critical of the first example or all of the examples above. Seeing all of them as too much melody and thus too sinful?

Some are very strict. One Turkey such one doing outreach in Germany forbade them to sit on a seat in a subway train where a woman just have arise from cause the warmth of her body still was on the seat so to sit down while it still is warm would to do adultery to her Husband. One have to wait until it cool down first before taking such a seat. This is true. A Turk guy translated from turkey. One of our famous music ambassador for music from the orient.

So I could guess that to call to prayer using such good melody could be seen as sinful to Allah?

As I said, singing is not prohibited in Islam if it's vocals only. Salafis doesn't have problems with different Quran readings. Different Quran readings generated in different regions, Egyptian reading is different from Saudis but they are both OK with both of them.

And about the subway seat, It's so stupid, I'm not even gonna comment to it.

Salam · 09-22-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

What do you mean by Islamic times?. If you mean Umayyad and Abassid dynasties, then you are right. Some of the Caliphs use to have music and dancing party, but it's still a sin according to the Salafis (conservative Sunni school) .

I remember in Saudi Arabia telling a guy about the Sufi tradition of dancing prayers, and he just couldn't believe it.

It's not a place for ecumenical religious discussions, I soon learned.

I'm from Saudi Arabia. It's weird he doesn't know about Sufi traditions. We know that Sufis doesn't have fixed practices as Salafis do, they believe there are a lot of ways to unite with god, but Salafis believe that Muslims must copy the practices of the first three generations (Muhammad's companions and the two generations after) any other other practices are prohibited, and there is nothing such as uniting with god.

Laurentius · 09-22-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Laurentius, this is not hip hop at all.

Just in case I've been misunderstood.
I didn't mean by any means to be disrespectful as regards Koran reading
but I meant to point out the chanting and melodiness of hip hop
well, yes, in my opinion.

wordy · 09-22-2007, 12:25 PM

HipHop maybe use melodies at times too. But I'm not good at hearing them. In recitation from Koran I hear melodies very easily and I like some of them very much.

He was a very famous Turkey muslim, the best they had in Germany? So I would not see him as something to ridicule. He wanted to be true to the text that came from Allah?

Salam · 09-22-2007, 01:06 PM

Sorry but nothing in Quran or Hadith (Sunna) I can recall talks about this matter.

wordy · 09-23-2007, 01:56 AM

Maybe Arabic use other concepts for melodies. Like Latin based languages has their special word for reading with a melody.

A lot of children learn to read the Koran by heart. They learn the melody from their Teacher who also learned it from their Teacher so these melodies could be very old?

Doesn't Hadit say anything about such?

Arab Classical Music and dito in India, Persia and Turkey all have Maqam that are rather similar in how they make melodies.

Christians wanting to be proud of their own abilities to make good melodies seems to have censored the old melodies. They seems to have survived as folk music among Christians. I'm just guessing.

Let me be specific.

If you listen to the 8 examples I linked to. You are musical enough to realize they all make use of same melody.

Does that mean that all readers has been teached by same Teacher. Or that the Hadit says one should use that melody for that verse?

Salam · 09-23-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Let me be specific.

If you listen to the 8 examples I linked to. You are musical enough to realize they all make use of same melody.

Does that mean that all readers has been teached by same Teacher. Or that the Hadit says one should use that melody for that verse?

Various readings were taking place at the time of the prophet -peace be upon him- and he didn't complain about it, but encouraged it. Arabic was slightly different in different regions of Arabia, that might be a reason of different readings or melodies. So when the prophets and the first caliphs sent some of Muhammads companions to different regions to teach them, every region copied their teachers way of reading. I can't recall any Islamic school rejecting this matter, even the most strict ones. All readings are fine unless it affects the meaning of the words.

wordy · 09-23-2007, 01:12 PM

Thanks.

I fail to reach you.

Did you listen to the eight examples I linked to. Do you recognize the melody. Do they read that way where you live locally. Have they gone in same Madrasa?

Your text could indicate that these melodies we hear now is from the time of Muhammad. That would be cool.

Take the Call to Prayer example. Is that the most known melody or are there many different such melodies in usage.

Maybe your on a slow line of your computer has no way of playing them? But when you go the Mosque don't you hear these melodies too? If you have heard them every Friday you could answer if they are the official sanctioned ones or if it is an individual interpretation or an individual made up melody for that Call to Pray who was recorded. Are Sunni and Shia agreeing on the melodies? Or did the Shia made their owns to show their different take on things?

Remember that I know almost nothing about such things.

I think I get why they don't agree with the Sufis though. For the same reason many of us atheists don't approve of atheist mystics.

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09-22-2007, 09:42 AM	#22
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Laurentius, this is not hip hop at all. Your from Rumania. I've heard lament singing at funerals. One melody they used was very beautiful. Old LP rwcord from pre 1960 maybe. Alan Lomax recording on Columbia Records or Folkways. Smithsonian Institute maybe owns it now. Lamentation at funerals are not ordinary singing either, it is a functional ritualistic expression to help people mourn. To set the emotions maybe. To give a public example or sanction, that it is ok to cry out loud that one are missing the dead person. The Call to Prayer I linked to are also a formal example, a functional expression. So singing is a word with other connotation. Sinful sexy singing, wailing as if your wanting something other than connection to God or Allah. So I could understand why they don't want to say they sing. But they use melody so it is confusing they don't admit they actually sing.

09-22-2007, 12:25 PM	#26
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	HipHop maybe use melodies at times too. But I'm not good at hearing them. In recitation from Koran I hear melodies very easily and I like some of them very much. He was a very famous Turkey muslim, the best they had in Germany? So I would not see him as something to ridicule. He wanted to be true to the text that came from Allah?

09-22-2007, 01:06 PM	#27
Salam Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Saudi Arabia Posts: 440	Sorry but nothing in Quran or Hadith (Sunna) I can recall talks about this matter.

09-23-2007, 01:56 AM	#28
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Maybe Arabic use other concepts for melodies. Like Latin based languages has their special word for reading with a melody. A lot of children learn to read the Koran by heart. They learn the melody from their Teacher who also learned it from their Teacher so these melodies could be very old? Doesn't Hadit say anything about such? Arab Classical Music and dito in India, Persia and Turkey all have Maqam that are rather similar in how they make melodies. Christians wanting to be proud of their own abilities to make good melodies seems to have censored the old melodies. They seems to have survived as folk music among Christians. I'm just guessing. Let me be specific. If you listen to the 8 examples I linked to. You are musical enough to realize they all make use of same melody. Does that mean that all readers has been teached by same Teacher. Or that the Hadit says one should use that melody for that verse?

09-23-2007, 01:12 PM	#30
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Thanks. I fail to reach you. Did you listen to the eight examples I linked to. Do you recognize the melody. Do they read that way where you live locally. Have they gone in same Madrasa? Your text could indicate that these melodies we hear now is from the time of Muhammad. That would be cool. Take the Call to Prayer example. Is that the most known melody or are there many different such melodies in usage. Maybe your on a slow line of your computer has no way of playing them? But when you go the Mosque don't you hear these melodies too? If you have heard them every Friday you could answer if they are the official sanctioned ones or if it is an individual interpretation or an individual made up melody for that Call to Pray who was recorded. Are Sunni and Shia agreeing on the melodies? Or did the Shia made their owns to show their different take on things? Remember that I know almost nothing about such things. I think I get why they don't agree with the Sufis though. For the same reason many of us atheists don't approve of atheist mystics.

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