Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nazaroo · 02-24-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

His enemy was Luthifer

This was the part that caused the pop to come out my nose.

gstafleu · 02-25-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

...Jor-El sent His only son to us...

And the baby was delivered by a fiery spirit from above to the childless couple Jonathan and Martha, who found him by following a star that fell to the earth.

Gerard Stafleu

WishboneDawn · 02-25-2007, 09:43 AM

Read the original origin of Superman. Very different implications and message.

Barefoot Bree · 02-25-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Read the original origin of Superman. Very different implications and message.

Link! Link! It's gotta be on the net somewhere. Post proof or retract. :devil1:

GakuseiDon · 02-25-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

Link! Link! It's gotta be on the net somewhere. Post proof or retract. :devil1:

Here's wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman

The original Superman was created by guys of the Jewish faith, based off earlier pagan legends like Hercules, as well as possible influences from Jewish figures like Moses. It was only later that a more historical setting -- like early childhood and more background details of where he lived when he first came to earth -- was crafted. The link says that "Superman's Kryptonian name, "Kal-El," resembles the Hebrew words קל-אל, which means "vessel of God"".

According to the link, Superman was originally written during the period of the Great Depression, as allegorical stories of left-leaning social activism fighting against the immediate evils of his day, e.g. crooked leaders and politicians. As further details were added, he was re-envisioned as a universal saviour type, becoming more accessible to others outside of his original intended audience.

WishboneDawn · 02-25-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

Link! Link! It's gotta be on the net somewhere. Post proof or retract. :devil1:

I'll just sit back and let GakuseiDon do all the work for me.

JoeWallack · 02-25-2007, 01:04 PM

All You Need Is Love

JW:
The parallels between Superman and Sonofman are better with the Later, John version of Jesus who is mainly Divine. The Original version of Jesus, "Mark", is Ironically closer to another Mythology which the Christians most hate/fear in our time, Harry Potter.

Harry Potter has a dual pedigree, just like Jesus. His mother is a muggle (human) and his father is a wizard (superhuman). And while the masses are most impressed with Harry's magical ability just as Jesus' audience is most impressed with his supernatural ability, the authors make it a priMary point to emphasize that what makes their hero Great is not their Divine ability but their Human ability.

Most of the Harry Potter stories involve Harry waving his wand and creating Magic. But eventually Harry is offset against creatures who have the same Magical ability. What distinguishes Harry against his opponents than is not his Magical ability since his opponents can match that but rather his human ability. In the climax of every story Harry makes a Choice to Serve/Sacrifice himself for others. He turns off his Magical side. This is what makes Harry Great in the eyes of his author and Choices and Serving involve his human side.

So too in the original Gospel what makes Jesus Great and a true Son is not his non-stop Supernatural acts in the first half of the Gospel. It's his Choice to turn off his Supernatural power and Suffer for others.

The Conclusion of both authors is that Human Love is stronger than Magical/Supernatural power.

Joseph

"LOVE, n.
A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease, like caries and many other ailments, is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient."

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

RAFH · 02-25-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Robert M. Price makes an analogy somewhere between mythology in general and the various "mythoi" (plural of mythos?) of the superhero world.

I think this analogy is relevant and interesting whether one is an MJ or HJ proponent. For the HJ-er, it helps one see how and why the story about Christ might have "drifted" from an initial slim kernel of truth and fact. For the MJ-er, it could carry even more weight in the final explanation (i.e. it's all just elaboration of myth, exactly like superheros, rather than elaboration of fact).

You know the kind of thing I mean though: A: well if Superman did this in series X then he couldn't have done this in series Y, so the crossover with WonderWoman doesn't work. B: nah, it's ok because when Green Lantern did Z he changed the thingummybob in the humptydumpty continuum, which enabled WonderWoman to complete the task Superman couldn't do earlier. Great fun!

IOW, the authors of biblical texts were ongoingly doing something like enthusiastically and vociferously correcting the continuity of a story, according to their own sense of the logic of it (and obviously taking into account their own pet obsessions).

For another take on this point:
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm

In other words, the editors of the original OT texts continuously amended and edited them to maintain the Hebrew ethnic sanity. Our god is ours out of many. Our god is the best of all. Our god is the only god. All to make the Hebrew experience make sense so they could keep on believing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

But more, I reckon one must imagine these people as somewhat the equivalent, in their day, of "geeks" ours; the geeky enthusiasm, even the patterns of logic (e.g., what's more powerful than what) might even be somewhat similar. (Actually you could look at it the other way round: the pattern of intense intellectualism, delight in reverse engineering, etc., that we now call "geeky" or "nerdy", may actually be partly the result of Judaism, its history of respect for learning and the analysis of texts considered to be fixed and holy. One can observe an analogous process of harmonization in Tibetan Buddhism, where successive - and to the layman genuinely contradictory - forms of Buddhism that migrated to Tibet were successively harmonized into a the monumental mediaeval religious edifice of the Tibetan Buddhism we find today.)

My own feeling is that it can't all be sheer geekery, sheerly made up; there is after all something immensely serious and spiritual about Christianity, just as much as Buddhism or Judaism, so there had to be some kind of genuinely spiritual "kernel" for elaboration and alternative-continuity-mongering; however it wasn't a historical kernel (the physical encounter with a one-shot Avatar of God) but a mystical kernel (visions, unitary experiences, etc.). Christ was the vision of a (perhaps now unknown) mystic, or rather several mystics in a spiritual community.

Why?

RAFH · 02-25-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazaroo

This was the part that caused the pop to come out my nose.

Nazaroo Syndrome - the expulsion of carbonated beverages through the nazal passages upon reading unique and often comical text passages.

02-25-2007, 01:04 PM	#17
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	Love Lost Such A Cost Give Me Covenants That Won't Get Tossed All You Need Is Love JW: The parallels between Superman and Sonofman are better with the Later, John version of Jesus who is mainly Divine. The Original version of Jesus, "Mark", is Ironically closer to another Mythology which the Christians most hate/fear in our time, Harry Potter. Harry Potter has a dual pedigree, just like Jesus. His mother is a muggle (human) and his father is a wizard (superhuman). And while the masses are most impressed with Harry's magical ability just as Jesus' audience is most impressed with his supernatural ability, the authors make it a priMary point to emphasize that what makes their hero Great is not their Divine ability but their Human ability. Most of the Harry Potter stories involve Harry waving his wand and creating Magic. But eventually Harry is offset against creatures who have the same Magical ability. What distinguishes Harry against his opponents than is not his Magical ability since his opponents can match that but rather his human ability. In the climax of every story Harry makes a Choice to Serve/Sacrifice himself for others. He turns off his Magical side. This is what makes Harry Great in the eyes of his author and Choices and Serving involve his human side. So too in the original Gospel what makes Jesus Great and a true Son is not his non-stop Supernatural acts in the first half of the Gospel. It's his Choice to turn off his Supernatural power and Suffer for others. The Conclusion of both authors is that Human Love is stronger than Magical/Supernatural power. Joseph "LOVE, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease, like caries and many other ailments, is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient." http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

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02-25-2007, 09:43 AM	#13
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	Read the original origin of Superman. Very different implications and message.

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