spamandham

I suppose the answer is "yes". Don't make the common mistake of comparing modern Jews to 1st century Jews. They are totally different.

gnosis92

Which group of first century non-Christian Jews believed in the Son?

Malachi151

Ascension of Isiah is a really key piece of evidence actually.

gnosis92

Hmm let's open another thread shall we?

Malachi151

Well, I treat the Martyrdom of Isaiah as more important, and this probably existed in the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

I'm not sure how reliable the dating of the rest of it is.

gnosis92

just 4u ive opened a new thread
Premise: Doherty's use of Ascension_of_Isaiah is no evidence for Jesus mythicism

since it figures prominenently in the Jesus puzzle. i

aa5874

There are no books or chapters of any books in the OT that contain any prophecies regarding the character described as Jesus the Christ in the NT.
All the so-called prophecies are lines or verses taken out of context, some of these lines or verses are also edited.
For example, chapter 7 of Isaiah, has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus the Christ of the NT, yet verse 14 is claimed to be prophesy about him.


Genesis 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Job 1:6-7, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

See also Job 2:1 for another account of the sons of God.

Again, if one reads Against Heresies by Irenaeus, it will be noted that there was more than one version of a mythical Jesus, and what is even more alarming is it that both MJers anf HJers thought each other version to be absurd.

gnosis92

Yeah "sons of God" is pretty confusing, but I'm not aware that these "sons of God" were ever worshipped as Deity.

aa5874

Read Valentinus version of the sons of God in Against Heresies and you may get an idea of Gods and their sons.

How do you determine that 'sons of God' in Genesis or Job does not refer to Jesus the Christ?

The Christian bible is confusing folklore until more credible information can be gleaned.

gnosis92

I think there is a miscommunication here.

"Ascension of Isiah is a really key piece of evidence actually."

"1- While it appears in James Chatherworth's translation the name Jesus does not appear, in that translation, Holy Spirit, Father, Lord, Son, Virgin, Messiah, etc are used. Unless there is another group of Judaism that uses these terms, together, it seems to me to be Christian. I am open to being wrong - if the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes did use these terms for deity than I am wrong. (I am well aware that the latter groups spoke of a Messiah, and Lord, El Shaddai, but did they also include the other terms together)?"

"I don't see why they couldn't be Jewish. The books of Enoch were Jewish scriptures. If you combine that with Isaiah, I think you have all these. I agree though, that this adds little to the mythicist case. Admittedly, I only scanned the Odes rather than really studying them."


was what I responding to.