JoeWallack

JW:
Regarding 14:28 thanks for helping me up.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14:28

"Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee." (ASV)

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_16:7

"But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (ASV)

JW:
Regarding 16:7 I only think the "as he said unto you" is Forged. I'm always reluctant to use not "Mark" to explain "Mark" but here "Matthew" lacks "as he said unto you", evidence that "Matthew" did not see it in the "Mark" he was copying. "Luke" of course, goes in a completely different direction, so to speak. But again, since "Matthew" and "Luke" start out as Markan Forgeries they are generally not proof (just evidence) of what was original to "Mark".

As to why I think the 14:28 Forgery lacks the "see" prediction Forgery has a Baruch Lie Kung Jew style, "Maximum force with minimum effort." Minimum words are normally preferred to minimize the intrusion. But guessing about the specifics of forgery is very speculative and you do have a logical point here.

Regarding the ignoring of 14:28 I agree that the author has a theme that Peter is much more concerned with himself than Jesus so Peter's response only to a negative prediction of him is consistent with his character. However, this isn't just anything Peter is ignoring here, it's the fourth Passion prediction whose number by itself puts it in question and a subject which previously always generated at least a comment from the only perfect character in "Mark", the Author.


JW:
No. Forgery is gradual. It's based on what the Subsequent audience thinks should have been meant (Interpretation/X-Uh-Jesus). It's progression is closest to whatever preceded it. We can see in the present discussion how our modern Christians here are still Interpreting Mark 14:28 & 16:7, even with a 16:8 ending, to Force a meaning of reunion and rehabilitation in Galilee. 14:28 & 16:7 are all they need because R & R in Galilee is what they think the result should be. This helped delay the Forged Long endings.

The Forged Long endings are just another step in the progression of what they thought should have happened. The Explicit Forgery of 16:9-20 just fills in what was thought to be Implied.


JW:
Considering the importance of this promise to Christian Assertian I'd say "odd" is an understatement. That Peter was behind this Gospel to use primarily to convince people that he was a credible witness to the resurrection is Comical.


JW:
I think so. Keep in mind that if there was a Forgery here it probably happened after "Matthew"/"Luke" and by that time the resurrection reunion stories were already established. All "Mark" would have to do is lead to the reunion stories in the other Gospels. Again, we see that this is exactly what the Christians here think. Minimum effort, maximum force.


16:8 Chiasm

And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. [Entered the Tomb - Amazed]

-----And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! [Ordered to not be Amazed]

-----But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. [Ordered To Talk]

And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.
[Left the Tomb - Amazed and not Talking]

You have to love the Ironic picture here that the women are only walking towards Jesus dead body and than running away from Jesus' live body!

By The Way, the "go before" of 14:28 and 16:7 are both Intransitive (not causal as in "lead") so "precede" is probably a better translation. This supports the position that any reunion in Galilee is unintentional on the part of the Disciples and would be consistent with the Author's Ironic, Unexpected Style that the Disciples really did abandon Jesus, went back to Galilee and saw Jesus again only because Jesus was already there.

There also would be the balance in the story as a whole that at the Beginning all that is known about Jesus is that he came from Galilee as the Disciples did too. Than at the End all that is known about Jesus is that he went back to Galilee and the Disciples did too.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
The consensus of Mainstream Christian Bible scholarship is that 14:28 & 16:7 Imply a Galilee Reunion. The thinking is that these verses show a Promise from Jesus which the author intended to communicate was fulfilled subsequent to the Narrative.

Let's consider though, reasons to Doubt that this author intended to Imply a Disciples' reunion in Galilee.

1) Overall Theme

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1

4
"John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."

The Messenger at the Beginning that All listen to.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_16

5
"And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed.

6
And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!

7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid."

The Messenger at the Ending that No One listens to.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1

42
"And straightway the leprosy departed from him, and he was made clean.

43 And he strictly charged him, and straightway sent him out,

44 and saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to spread abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into a city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter."

Jesus Commands Not to talk about his Teaching/Healing ministry. All talk about it.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_9

9
"And as they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, save when the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.

10 And they kept the saying, questioning among themselves what the rising again from the dead should mean."

Jesus Commands to Talk about his Passion. No one talks about it.

The Command to talk about the Passion as opposed to the Teaching/Healing ministry is my interpretation. I see "Mark" as priMarily a Reaction to the Historical witness of Jesus, Q. The Historical Peter & the Disciples were emphasizing Jesus' Teaching/Healing ministry. "Mark" is a Commentary that the Disciples misunderstood Jesus and were teaching what was not important, Teaching/Healing ministry, and not teaching what was important, The Passion.

In any case the Overall Theme of "Mark" shows an Ironic Contrast between Jesus Promotion at the Start (Everyone) and Jesus Promotion at the End (No one). Consistent with this Structure is that within the Narrative no one including the Disciples promotes Jesus at the End. There could be an Implication outside the Narrative (post) that someone, including the Disciples, promoted Jesus. However, considering that the body of "Mark" has clearly established Peter and the Disciples as Failing/Denying Jesus, the Author would appear to be a much better candidate for post Narrative promotion of Jesus than the Disciples.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page