Johnny Skeptic

Why is it ok for you to particpate in a thread about the Exodus and the ten plagues without offerring any credible evidence at all that the events occurred? If the Exodus occurred, so what? That would have just been ordinary secular history. If the plagues occurred, then where is any historical evidence that they occurred? Do you have any? No?, well that was already a given, just like your failure to provide historical evidence on other issues such as regarding the dating of the Tyre prophecy and evidence that the prophecy has not been revised.

bfniii

the old appeal to numbers....



like i've never answered this one. why do you pretend that i haven't answered it over and over? what would be evidence to you?

Johnny Skeptic

If the Exodus occurred, then you need to reasonably prove why it occurred. What historical evidence do you have regarding why it occurred? Why couldn’t the Exodus have occurred for secular reasons? What would be evidence for me? I am not sure. Just post whatever evidence that you have and let's see.

FatherMithras

Human shit wouldn't erode in the desert, neither would the many artifacts people wandering in it for years would leave. We can and have seen and found artifacts from people going through that desert, and we know it's easy to find them given enough time. NONE is found for the Hebrews.

Nothing supports your theory. No evidence. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim and you've provided none, thus your argument, while theoretically possible, has no factual basis to stand on.

Yes I make alot of generic sweeping statements. After I cite archaelogists never having found one thing collaborating the exodus or the Biblical history of the time, ever, I've pretty much won. BURDEN OF PROOF.

Gullwind

It was a dodge. Rather than answer my question and show the evidence you claim you have, you simply disagreed with me and reversed the question, asking me what I consider evidence.

So now, after seventeen pages and over four hundred posts, you decide to establish a standard? Better late than never, I guess.

These have been addressed many times before. Simply because you don't think this evidence should reasonably be found is not good enough for me.

Nubians, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, etc.

You know, the cultures that the Egyptians dealt with?

There is evidence that does not flatly contradict the exodus account. I won't bother asking once again for you to point out whatever evidence you think supports it. And I have agreed several times that if new evidence comes to light, I will reconsider my position.

Not exactly. You have asserted that certain information is difficult or impossible to find. Its not quite the same thing.

How is finding a text that corroborates the plagues or finding a massive campsite an unreasonable goal? Campsites of just a few people have been found, why is that of a few million too high a standard?

Perhaps your standards are too low?

Not the way the bible describes it. That is what we're discussing, isn't it?

Gee, thousands of people marching in, knocking over cities, taking over whole regions all within a few decades. The evidence that this would (not might, but WOULD) leave will all be found in the essentially the same level at multiple sites. If it happened over hundreds of years, the evidence would appear at different levels. That's how.

Not everyone looks at it in terms of "the bible must be true". As for the time frame, are you referring to how long the conquest took or when it took place?

How long seems to be fifty years at most. As for when, it depends on how literally you take the bible, but I don't think it really happened at all.

But are they more plausible than simply a fictional account written to give the exiled Jews a sense of nationality to prevent them from being assimilated into Babylonian culture?

They have given their reasons why your responses do not satisfy them. Rather than try to elaborate, you simply repeat that you have already addressed them.

The scholarship that has found Jericho to have been uninhabited at the time of the conquest. The scholarship that cannot find a trace of culture-changing events as described in the bible. The scholarship that has found a gradual (taking hundreds of years) expansion of Hebrew culture throughout Canaan, while not finding the expected Egyptain influences that a group living in captivity for hundreds of years would accumulate. The scholarship that has not found a trace of millions of people living for nearly forty years in one spot, for which we have a pretty good idea of the location (its a pretty big target to miss).

Specific enough? And I know what you're going to say. You have already addressed each of these elements. What we're tyring to say is that your personal incredulity is not sufficient to make us accept the extraordinary events as described in the bible. If the evidential situation changes, we'll talk, but right now there is not nearly enough to convince someone who does not already believe that the bible is true.

bfniii

which questions have i dodged?

bfniii

not at all. a few thousand added to a few thousand does not equal 600,000.



typical. you misrepresent my position and then shut down the discussion. i guess that makes it easier for you to feel better about your beliefs. you don't really have to defend them.

bfniii

what makes you think it is sufficient for me?



i'm not following what this means in regards to the exodus. could you rephrase it for me? are you saying that there should be more documentation of the exodus by non-hebrews?



how is that different from many events of ancient history?



that's not alot more to go on. it could be said that you were having a drug-induced hallucination. it could be said that you were lying about seeing God. it could be said that you were mistaken. such a demonstration might be convincing to you, but how would you convince others of what happened? how can you label it proof when you wouldn't be able to irrefutably overcome objections to your proof?



i have never made such a presupposition.



i am not trying to convince anyone of anything. in this thread, i have presented alternative explanations to objections to the ten plagues and the exodus.



this is not entirely true as i have stated to you many times before. there are certain things that corroborate these things making the event reasonably believable, just like many things from ancient history. in addition, the objections are not universally convincing (almost all of the archaeology-based objections are built on argument from silence which is a logical fallacy). therefore, some people are reasonably justified in believing that such things did actually happen. certain people are not convinced by the available information making them skeptical of those events. in each case, the information hasn't changed at all. what has changed is the underlying worldview of the people in question.



and what test would you apply to these miraculous events to verify their trustworthiness?



i don't know if it's equally valid, but it is a supposition



you are correct that i snipped the segments of your post that apply to philosophy. we can discuss those in another forum. i ask this question over and over: what do you think i have avoided? i either don't get an answer or i get referred to a point that i have responded to. yet i continue to see this accusation.

much of what you post here has been addressed multiple times. why is it that you feel justified in accusing me of certain things while never admitting that you repeat answered questions over and over and over?

bfniii

several people here have hidden behind the "can't prove a negative" excuse when they are unable to prove their point.



that is not known. if you disagree, prove your point.



in what way?



since your propositions are in doubt, your sweeping conclusion is also in doubt.



which ones specfically? feel free to point me to a thread where that has been discussed or create a new one.

FatherMithras

Well, since you can't prove a negative and it's logically not viable to make a case for something on no evidence, this isn't hiding. Anyhow, we've given examples of how we KNOW what the Jews were doing during these points.

Are you kidding? Go take some classes or get into the literature. We've already posted a dozen links about this. How's this for a refresher. We know they were in the lands they were occupying for their whole existence, and were developing their culture, with the story of the Exodus on conquest of the Holy land by divine right only coming about during the Babylon occupation and invasion (done to show legitimacy of their claims to the land).

Known history shows that not only is there no evidence of them happening, we have history contradicting the stories. For example, Jesus didn't have thosands of followers during his life, Jews weren't enslaved in Egypt.

They'r enot in doubt by the archaelogists who've done the work or the people who've read them. only by you, because you ignore the burden of proof and claim a book written hundreds of years after the fact is more valid than all our modern archaelogy and the writings of the nearby peoples, including Egyot itself.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/buried.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/elijah.html