Freethought & Rationalism Archive

michael wellenberg · 04-01-2006, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

This was the original post. Why do you disagree with my characterization? By evangelist do you mean the Gospel authors?

The very first post of this thread which I referred to, and which you kindly reminded me of, was that Jesus did not call himself God. This is clearly derived from the gospels written by the Evangelists (or gospel writers, if you prefer). So the question is initially that of their view of Jesus, not today´s view.
So if you correct me be sure it is not superfluous.

Michael

The Bishop · 04-01-2006, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fast

It's my opinion that most Christians do not view Jesus as God. There are some, yes, but not as many as some may lead us to believe.

The majority opinion that most conservative ministers hold is that Jesus is the Son of God. They may be 'as one' in spirit, but certainly not the same entity (or being).

I believe this is slightly misinformed. I don't know about you, but when I see the phrase "conservative ministers", I think Evangelical Christians, generally American. They of course do not constitute a majority of Christians in any strictly numerical sense, at least not worldwide. But their increasing influence and huge advance and success, particularly over the last 20 - 30 years in the USA certainly disqualifies them from mere dismissal. And they are quite specific on the utter divinity of Jesus. In fact they seem notably more in favour of worshipping God the Son in preference to God the Father. Any suggestion that Jesus is not God is stamped on instantly as Devil-talk.

michael wellenberg · 04-01-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fast

It's my opinion that most Christians do not view Jesus as God. There are some, yes, but not as many as some may lead us to believe.

The majority opinion that most conservative ministers hold is that Jesus is the Son of God. They may be 'as one' in spirit, but certainly not the same entity (or being).

In addition to what The Bishop states, it should be recalled that in Catholicism (my belief), though trinity is probably accepted by the most, the confession runs like this : "I believe in God ... and in Jesus Christ, His inborn Son, our Lord ...".
So even here it is not EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus is God, reflecting the century-old struggle for the proper understanding of Jesus´identity that started at the very beginning.

Michael

Hallandale · 04-01-2006, 08:05 AM

The Apostle Paul makes an interesting point at Romans 1:19-20.....
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

What is known about God is Evident.
Since Creation God's divine nature has been clearly seen.

So how come the Jews don't believe in the Trinity?

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

StarCross · 04-01-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Am I right on this, oh biblical experts?
It is a basic tenet of the Christian faith that Jesus is God.
Jesus never said that he is God.
Jesus said that the highest commandment is that God is one, or something along those lines.
Therefore to believe that Jesus is God violates Jesus' own words.
?

Hi TomboyMom,

Many professing Christians do believe that Jesus is God but what they believe isn't relevent. Scripture does not identify Jesus as God. Jesus is the Son of God:

>> "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:34 (NASB)) <<

>> Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16) <<

If you remove the 'Son of' from this testimony, you are adding to scripture. The apostle Paul wrote:

>> For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5) <<

If God's son is also God then either nobody stands in the mediator position between God and men or nobody stands in the position of God himself.

Peace,
StarCross.

Chili · 04-01-2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Am I right on this, oh biblical experts?
It is a basic tenet of the Christian faith that Jesus is God.
Jesus never said that he is God.
Jesus said that the highest commandment is that God is one, or something along those lines.
Therefore to believe that Jesus is God violates Jesus' own words.
?

Do you mean the Jesus they crucified of the Jesus who rose from the dead?

The trinity is an inspired concept for humans to recognize the reality of God but is resolved when Jesus was raised as confirmed by Thomas in: "my Lord and my God."

How many times did Jesus not say, "the father and I are one?" They were one, indeed, but not fully one until after resurrection took place and this was contingent upon his death.

So yes he was both God and not God depending on the speaker.

StarCross · 04-01-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Do you mean the Jesus they crucified of the Jesus who rose from the dead?

The trinity is an inspired concept for humans to recognize the reality of God but is resolved when Jesus was raised as confirmed by Thomas in: "my Lord and my God."

How many times did Jesus not say, "the father and I are one?" They were one, indeed, but not fully one until after resurrection took place and this was contingent upon his death.

So yes he was both God and not God depending on the speaker.

Hi Chili,

Jesus said that those words above before he died for anybody ("I and the father are one" (John 10:30)). He also said that the father was greater than him:
>> "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28) <<

Do you suppose that there is a different meaning to those words in John 10:30 than what you ascribe to them?

Peace,
StarCross.

Chili · 04-01-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarCross

Hi Chili,

Jesus said that those words above before he died for anybody ("I and the father are one" (John 10:30)). He also said that the father was greater than him:
>> "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28) <<

Do you suppose that there is a different meaning to those words in John 10:30 than what you ascribe to them?

Peace,
StarCross.

To be fully one with the father is to be fully man instead of son of man or son of God. "Fully one" means equal with the father (as in my Lord and my God after crucifixion) for which the Prince of the world has to be at hand without having a hold on Jesus. This close proximity is a sign of maturing now as young man towards the final end wherein the prince of this world can be crucified without distress.

Jesus also said that the spirit of truth is already 'with' us and will be 'within' us (Jn.14:17) much in the same way as it was with him and came to be within him and now soon will be [equal] with the father in the same way as the father is truth without end. It is part of the transformation wherein we must follow Jesus, I would say, and therefore he left us so we can be fully one with the father also.

Is this what you were looking for? Notice the movement here from infancy, to young man, to fully man wherein knowledge must place the two kings side by side to make one of them redundant (crucifyable) to end up with I AM.

Did Jesus also not say once that the [will of the] Father must increase while I must decrease?

The Bishop · 04-01-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

In addition to what The Bishop states, it should be recalled that in Catholicism (my belief), though trinity is probably accepted by the most, the confession runs like this : "I believe in God ... and in Jesus Christ, His inborn Son, our Lord ...".
So even here it is not EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus is God, reflecting the century-old struggle for the proper understanding of Jesus´identity that started at the very beginning.

I think you think I agree that Jesus is not generally considered God. I don't. The Nicene Creed says, "I believe in Jesus his only begotten Son. God from God. Light from Light. True God from True God. Begotten not made". Catholics definitely believe that Jesus is God.

Febble · 04-01-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael wellenberg

In addition to what The Bishop states, it should be recalled that in Catholicism (my belief), though trinity is probably accepted by the most, the confession runs like this : "I believe in God ... and in Jesus Christ, His inborn Son, our Lord ...".
So even here it is not EXPLICITLY stated that Jesus is God, reflecting the century-old struggle for the proper understanding of Jesus´identity that started at the very beginning.

Michael

Oh yes it is:

Quote:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.

The Nicene creed is an explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity:

Quote:

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

Then the other stuff is tacked on at the end:

Quote:

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Not quite as explicit as the Athanasian creed of course....

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04-01-2006, 08:05 AM	#24
Hallandale Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Fort Pierce Florida Posts: 52	The Apostle Paul makes an interesting point at Romans 1:19-20..... 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. What is known about God is Evident. Since Creation God's divine nature has been clearly seen. So how come the Jews don't believe in the Trinity? Nick Hallandale enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

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