Freethought & Rationalism Archive

patchy · 01-05-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny911

The existence of a man named Jesus of Nazareth <snip>

Hang on. First things first.

You can prove this existence, using something other than the bible, I take it?

Osbert · 01-05-2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny911

The existence of a man named Jesus of Nazareth is adequate confirmation that it had not been contrived and written down to fit the prophecies spoken of Him.

Everything Christ did, and everything that happened to Him, was in accordance with the prophecies made of Him.

What if Jesus himself never existed?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

New Atheist · 01-05-2008, 07:53 AM

Why not move this thread to BC&H? In my opinion the OP is ignorant of much of bible history- its no use going on with smaller arguments when there is such ignorance of basic ideas. And I don't mean that as an insult, but this paragraph

Quote:

There were many leaders, Romans and Jews alike, during the time of Christ who hated Him and what He taught, after Jesus had died these people, when making records, could very well have denied His existence and the whole history of a man named Christ could have been effaced from the records, yet even these men admit to His existence. Thereby, His existence alone vindicates the prophecies made of Him, not to mention the countless records of man who "taught truth and went about performing miracles".

shows that you have little knowledge of the views and arguments regarding biblical history. Which is not an accusation in any way- but it feels like somebody asking for a literally analysis of Shakespeare, when he doesn't even know the English language. How can you expect an answer when you have such vast disagreements on the basics?

diana · 01-05-2008, 08:35 AM

Moved to BC&H from EOG. Better fit here.

d

Malachi151 · 01-05-2008, 08:48 AM

See:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

Huon · 01-05-2008, 09:11 AM

Why didn't the Bible prophesy the coming of Muhammad ?

Jenny911 · 01-05-2008, 10:35 AM

I understand that you didn't mean anything personal New Athiest, but the one who points the finger sheds the signs of ignorance.

Nothing personal

See the points on the article I posted.

makerowner · 01-05-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny911

I understand that you didn't mean anything personal New Athiest, but the one who points the finger sheds the signs of ignorance.

Nothing personal

See the points on the article I posted.

Let's look at the article. Here are some highlights:

Quote:

As mentioned earlier, the Bible is over 20% prophecies. No other religious book contains such a vast amount of prophecy.

The Book of Jubilees is written almost entirely as a prophecy. I guess that proves that Jubilees is the real word of God.

Quote:

The Old Testament predictions of the Messiah to come were so specific and so clearly fulfilled by Jesus. There are more than 125 of these prophecies.

And the only sources we have for the fulfillment of these prophecies are people who believed that he was the Messiah and therefore had to fulfill them. Let's go through the list:

Quote:

Born in Bethlehem

Probably not. The idea that Joseph would have to return to Bethlehem for the census is rather silly, and not recorded in non-Christian texts.

Quote:

Born of a virgin

Only if you already believe in the NT accounts. This is based on a probable mistranslation of Isaiah, and even if the translation is correct, it was intended to refer to the near future in Isaiah's time. (It was supposed to be a sign for king Hezekiah, remember.)

Quote:

Of David's lineage

You can't have it both ways. If he was the son of God, then he's not Joseph's son and therefore not a descendant of David. If he is Joseph's son, then he's not the son of God, except possibly in an Adoptionist sense (which is most likely what the earliest Christians believed).

Quote:

Attempted murder by Herod

Also not recorded in any non-Christian source.

Quote:

Betrayal by a friend

Sold for 30 silver coins

No non-Christian sources.

Quote:

Crucified

So were thousands of common criminals.

Quote:

Lots cast for His clothes

No non-Christian source. (NNCS)

Quote:

No bones broken

NNCS and rather unlikely.

Quote:

Buried in rich man's tomb

NNCS

Quote:

Year, day, hour of His death: Daniel 9:26, 27; Exodus 12:6

Quote:

[26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

The weeks prophecy starts at the rebuilding of the temple in 535 BC. Sixty-two weeks of years is 434 years. So Jesus was killed in 101 BC?
If Luke is to be believed, Jesus was crucified the day after Passover, the 15th, rather than the 14th as stated in the Exodus verse. There's also no mention of the hour in either verse. This is all ignoring the fact that the Exodus verse is an instruction in religious ritual rather than a prophecy.

Quote:

Raised the third day

NNCS

Quote:

Dr. Peter Stoner, former chairman of the departments of mathematics, astronomy, and engineering at Pasadena College (California), worked with 600 students for several years applying the "principle of probability" to the prophecies of the Messiah's coming. They chose just eight prophecies from the many available and finally decided the chances of all eight being fulfilled in one man in a lifetime are one in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. What would the odds be on the more than 125 prophecies of the Messiah? It couldn't just happen!

First of all, what a waste of time. Second, how do you calculate the probability of a man being betrayed by his friend? Third, this guy believes that the Tyre prophecy of Ez. 26 was fulfilled, so he's not worth considering.

Roland · 01-05-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Raven

Oh boy...here we go...

:banghead: :Cheeky:

Thanks, this was my best laugh of the day! :wave:

Amaleq13 · 01-05-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny911

According to history the Medes and the Persians reigned as one power.

No, history tells us the Persians defeated and absorbed Medes. It does not tell us they reigned together.

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01-05-2008, 08:35 AM	#14
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Moved to BC&H from EOG. Better fit here. d

01-05-2008, 08:48 AM	#15
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	See: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3 http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

01-05-2008, 09:11 AM	#16
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Why didn't the Bible prophesy the coming of Muhammad ?

01-05-2008, 10:35 AM	#17
Jenny911 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: US Posts: 20	I understand that you didn't mean anything personal New Athiest, but the one who points the finger sheds the signs of ignorance. Nothing personal See the points on the article I posted.

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