Dean Anderson

Here is an English translation of the Tablet of Adapa, where the first man - previously created by Enki from clay to work in his garden (sound familiar?) - is sent to the abode of the gods, where he is offered the food of immortality; but Enki has tricked him into thinking that the food will kill him so he does not eat it.

As you can see, the main narrative of the story is rather different to the Eden story, but the theme within it - of the first man who was made from clay to be a worker being tricked by the god who made him into not eating the Food Of The Gods which would make him immortal - is there.

We've had this discussion before a couple of years ago I think, and you brought up Augustine then.

The point remains that Augustine was a Christian theologian, and was therefore imposing Christian theology into an ancient Hebrew text.

Augustine's was answering the theological issue of whether Adam was mortal or not before the "fall" when "sin" entered the world because Adam disobeyed the "all-powerful God" of Christianity.

None of those concepts are even present in the Hebrew text.

judge

Ok, that is not a problem for me. I want to be open to the idea that a theist and atheist or an agnostic could all teach me something.



The mortality/immortality issue is present in the Hebrew text.

I think the best we can be is agnostic rather than dogmatic when we speculate how the original authors saw these issues.

Thanks for the link.

-Jay-

The text seems pretty straightforward. First tree = wisdom, YHWH gets annoyed (and perhaps a little nervous) that the Man and Woman might get to the second tree (immortality), so he tosses them from the garden, with a snide comment to the other gods present. As far as it goes, it's less convoluted than many other accounts.

It's interesting that those who insist on literal interpretation will twist this story all around to imply that humans were originally immortal and T. rex ate coconuts.

(I also like the retrojection of the notion of a triune Godhead into the story as a way to explain the "us" references. It makes the Bible play out like some sort of mystery novel, with the Big Reveal of Jesus at the start of Matthew...)

regards,

NinJay

Dean Anderson

I just thought I'd toss another contradiction resolved by the DH into the ring, while we wait for Dave to come back...

In Genesis 6:3, we hear God saying that from now on humans will be limited to a 120 year lifespan. This apparently contradicts the many extended lifespans that are spread throughout the Torah. Indeed, almost every one of the Partriarchs is listed as having lived for much longer than 120 years.

However, once we split the text into its sources, we see something interesting.

The proscription on human lifespans is in the J source, and in that source we never encounter anyone living longer than the 120 year limit.

Indeed, Moses himself - the true hero of the Hebrew people - is listed by the J author as living exactly 120 years - and still being fit and healthy at the point at which he dies.

The various lengthy ages of the patriarchs are not found in J. They are only found in other sources such as P and the Book of Records.

So the J text has a strict 120 year limit on human lifespans, and no-one breaks that limit (although Moses reaches it exactly).

And the P text and the Book of Records have many people with lifespans that exceed 120 years, but no mention of a 120 year limit.

James Brown

There's also an 'us' mention at the Tower of Babel, another story heavily influenced by Babylonian mythology. After that, though, IIRC, never again. It's always I AM. (Perhaps a pantheon coup between the events of Genesis and Exodus? Or maybe YHWH got some medication for his bi-polarism and multiple personality syndrome?)

About the closest thing we see is the first chapter of Job, when all the supernatural deities come, Lucifer included, and hang around with YHWH in his palace. He and Lucifer even engage in a gentleman's wager concerning an innocent mortal (again, much like Babylonian mythology). I can easily picture Jesus, sitting at the right hand of YHWH, bored and sulking:

"C'mon, Father. Lucifer gets to wander around Earth and stuff. When do I get to do anything?"

"Don't worry, my Son," YHWH replies with a growing smile across his face. "I have something very special planned for you."

Derec

How's this for a coup?

Psalm 82

¹God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
²How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
³Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
⁴Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
⁵They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
⁶I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
⁷But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
⁸Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Dean Anderson

The English translation does its best there to minimise the polytheistic aspects of that passage. If we render the names more accurately, we get:

¹God standeth in the congregation of El; he judgeth among the gods.
²How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
³Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
⁴Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
⁵They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
⁶I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of El the most High.
⁷But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
⁸Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.[/QUOTE]

This is a nice companion to Deuteronomy 32 (in terms of the DH, this is considered to be part of a traditional song put into the mouth of Moses by the D author):

⁸When El the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
⁹For Yahweh's portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

These are both clearly remnants of the older henotheistic elements of the Hebrew religion - where Yahweh, the tribal God of the Hebrews is one of the many sons of El, chief of the Canaanite pantheon.

In the Deuteronomy verse we see El portioning out Canaan to his children, giving the Hebrews to Yahweh. Then in the Psalm, we see Yahweh raised to pre-eminence judging the other gods as worthless and taking their land and followers.

It is a nice window into the gradual development from the Hebrew belief in Yahweh as their local tribal god to the eventual Monotheism of later Judaism.

-Jay-

"Selah" here is used sort of like "amen", right? As an interjection?


Good word, henotheistic, and not one you see every day. I've not seen any apologetic efforts directed at refuting/denying the polytheistic/henotheistic roots of Hebrew religion.

regards,

NinJay

No Robots

Here's what Spinoza says about the names for God that appear in the Bible:

God, in order to show the singular grace bestowed upon Moses, says to him: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of El Sadai (A. V. God Almighty); but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them" - for the better understanding of which passage I may remark that El Sadai, in Hebrew, signifies the God who suffices, in that He gives to every man that which suffices for him; and, although Sadai is often used by itself, to signify God, we cannot doubt that the word El (God) is everywhere understood. Furthermore, we must note that Jehovah is the only word found in Scripture with the meaning of the absolute essence of God, without reference to created things. The Jews maintain, for this reason, that this is, strictly speaking, the only name of God; that the rest of the words used are merely titles; and, in truth, the other names of God, whether they be substantives or adjectives, are merely attributive, and belong to Him, in so far as He is conceived of in relation to created things, or manifested through them. Thus El, or Eloah, signifies powerful, as is well known, and only applies to God in respect to His supremacy, as when we call Paul an apostle; the faculties of his power are set forth in an accompanying adjective, as El, great, awful, just, merciful, &c., or else all are understood at once by the use of El in the plural number, with a singular signification, an expression frequently adopted in Scripture.

--TTP, Chap. 13

For the special meaning of Jahve, see this post.

James Brown

Great catch. The evolution of polytheism to monotheism has occurred many times in human history. I see the evolution as inevitable. It's the old, "My god can beat up your god" argument taken to its logical extreme.