Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gawen · 01-29-2008, 06:23 PM

In no particular order:

Mark 1:15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Matthew 24:34: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Matthew 10:23: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes."

Even in selling his apocryphal "Good News", Jesus had to find people to help him. Perhaps they heard some of Jesus’ message, perhaps not; it is not told to us in the Bible. If times are harsh and you're an occupied people and gullible enough to contemplate it, consider these:
Mark 3: 13, 14: Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14: He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach.

Mark 8:34: Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 14:33: So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Luke 18:22: When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

If the end of the world is near, this makes perfect sense:
Mark 6: 8-9: These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9: Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Matt.6: 19-20, 25: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal….
25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Given that he thought the world was ending and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes perfect sense that his message revolves around the end times. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power, or family. He urged his followers to forsake all of these to focus entirely on purifying their own character, doing good works, and spreading the gospel. You are not pursuing a pleasant and successful life on Earth. You are applying for an everlasting afterlife in Heaven before the Earth is soon destroyed.

It must be remembered that the context of Jesus’ ministry was harsh, otherworldly, and very urgent; the Kingdom of God was very close at hand and would in fact come into being within the lifetime of some of those around him, yet no one knew when.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

In no particular order:

Mark 1:15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Matthew 24:34: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Matthew 10:23: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes."

Even in selling his apocryphal "Good News", Jesus had to find people to help him. Perhaps they heard some of Jesus’ message, perhaps not; it is not told to us in the Bible. If times are harsh and you're an occupied people and gullible enough to contemplate it, consider these:
Mark 3: 13, 14: Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14: He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach.

Mark 8:34: Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 14:33: So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Luke 18:22: When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

If the end of the world is near, this makes perfect sense:
Mark 6: 8-9: These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9: Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Matt.6: 19-20, 25: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal….
25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Given that he thought the world was ending and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes perfect sense that his message revolves around the end times. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power, or family. He urged his followers to forsake all of these to focus entirely on purifying their own character, doing good works, and spreading the gospel. You are not pursuing a pleasant and successful life on Earth. You are applying for an everlasting afterlife in Heaven before the Earth is soon destroyed.

It must be remembered that the context of Jesus’ ministry was harsh, otherworldly, and very urgent; the Kingdom of God was very close at hand and would in fact come into being within the lifetime of some of those around him, yet no one knew when.

But how did this gospel of a fictional messianic figure spread around the world? Did another fictional character called Paul of Tarsus spread the good news of a fictional Jesus. And did fictional christian believers become martyred by Romans, too. In fact the myth of christian martyrs started in the 4th century,right?

Antipope Innocent II · 01-29-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Given that he thought the world was ending and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes perfect sense that his message revolves around the end times. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power, or family. He urged his followers to forsake all of these to focus entirely on purifying their own character, doing good works, and spreading the gospel. You are not pursuing a pleasant and successful life on Earth. You are applying for an everlasting afterlife in Heaven before the Earth is soon destroyed.

It must be remembered that the context of Jesus’ ministry was harsh, otherworldly, and very urgent; the Kingdom of God was very close at hand and would in fact come into being within the lifetime of some of those around him, yet no one knew when.

Absolutely. I'd argue there's is little doubt that the Jesus we find in the gospels (and Paul) was preaching an apocalyptic message. The clear indication of this to me (though not to our JMer friends

) is that the historical Yeshua was an apocalyptic preacher.

Bart Ehrman summarises the evidence for the beginner in Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Dale C. Allison presents a far more detailed analysis of Jesus' apocalypticism in his Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (or via: amazon.co.uk). Allison debates Crossan and the Jesus Seminar guys on the issue in The Apocalytic Jesus: A Debate (or via: amazon.co.uk)and, IMO, wipes the floor with their non-apocalyptic "sage" Jesus.

A Stable Flux · 01-30-2008, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Apocalyptic imagery was part of Christ's rhetorical arsenal, as it was for the OT prophets.

Surprisingly, the Old Testament prophets weren't concerned with eschatology but instead were focused on a this-worldly theology, revolving around Yahweh bestowing a geographical country for his followers to dwell in.

Quote:

For example, in the preapocalyptic Book of Ezechiel, which dates from the time of the exile, God promises Israel, "I will open your graves and raise you from them" (37:12).But this promised "resurrection" was merely a symbol of Israel's eventual return from the Babylonian Exile to the very concrete and this-worldly land of Palestine, as the continuation of the passage shows: "You shall live, and I will place you in your own land" (37:14).However, in the apocalyptic Book of Daniel resurrection was promised not as a metaphor for future political restoration but quite literally as the otherworldly reward of the just at the end of time: And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)[16]

(Sheehan 2000:43, my emphasis)

It wasn't until the radical sect of the Maccabees that apocalyticism started being put forward. Although It is true that Jesus did use some apocalyptic imagery, but it was as you say rhetorical and more importantly allegorical.

A Stable Flux · 01-30-2008, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Which Jesus are we talking about? Is the Jesus of Paul apocalyptic? I don't know, actually, perhaps a Paul expert can throw some light on this. The "Jesus" of Revelations OTOH is clearly apocalyptic, or more accurately he is more or less the apocalypse all by his little self. The gospel Jesus seems to be a bit of both. Often he is a be-nice-here-and-now guy, at other times, like on the Mount of Olives, he lets rip some uninhibited apocalypsism. And why he bothered with that whole crucifixion deal if the end were near is a bit of a mystery.

Gerard Stafleu

You’ve raised important distinctions. Which Jesus are we considering to be apocalyptic? The historical or the literary Jesus? If literary, in all literature or just the canonical gospels? I’m learning up and considering whether Jesus of the canonical gospels was apocalyptic, but I’d be interested to hear about other literature. The book of revelations is as you say a run of the mill apocalyptic text. I’m also unread on Pauline epistles.

A Stable Flux · 01-30-2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

The Gnostics certainly didn't think Jesus preached a apocalyptic message nor that the often assocaited "Kingdom of Heaven" was a reference to some historical yet-to-be event associated with it.

Quote:

From the Gospel of Thomas

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

By this interpretation the sayings/teachings of Jesus can be see as extremely similar to Buddah. Only later were these things associated with Jewish eschalogical ideas derived from Persian influence.

I understand the Jesus Seminar, or affiliated biblical researchers, now always publish the sayings gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, with the four standard canonical gospels. It surprises me how much people know of the Dead Sea scrolls and how few people know of the Nag Hammadi library and Gnosticism.

mountainman · 01-30-2008, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

The Gnostics certainly didn't think Jesus preached a apocalyptic message nor that the often assocaited "Kingdom of Heaven" was a reference to some historical yet-to-be event associated with it..

Neither did the authors of many of the non canonical Acts:

In the Syriac Acts of Philip Jesus
issues commands to Philip in visions.

In the "Acts of Andrew and Matthias"
Jesus drives a boat and asks questions
about what people think of him.

In the "Acts of Peter and Andrew" Jesus
appears in the form of a little child and,
promising to be with them, promptly left them.

In the Acts of Thomas, Jesus appears to
Thomas at night and orders him to go to India,
but Thomas refuses to go. Jesus then sells Thomas
into slavery at the markets to an Indian merchant,
and receives the bill-of-sale.

In the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles,
the Healer Lithargoel, whom most think to be Jesus,
has the appearance of a physician,
since an unguent box was under his arm,
and a young disciple was following him
carrying a pouch full of medicine.
The Eleven Apostles prostrate themselves
twice on the ground to the Pearl Man Lithargoel.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

A Stable Flux · 01-30-2008, 02:37 AM

I’ll address what I can with your comprehensive post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

In no particular order:

Mark 1:15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Jesus had a very upbeat belief about the coming of the kingdom of God. In comparison to John the Baptist who was apocalyptic through and through. With the idea of an ultimate judgement which decides an individual’s fate for all time, I think Jesus can’t have been thinking about an apocalyptic kingdom of God considering his overwhelming positive attitude.

Quote:

The uniqueness of Jesus' message lay in his conviction that in some way the future kingdom had already dawned and that the celebration could begin. The Baptist before him had Preached an impending final judgment, but Jesus went him twice better: not judgment but a gift, in fact the gift of God himself, and not just impending but right here and now. God had already started to reign among men and women. The kingdom of God has come upon you. ... Blessed are the eyes which see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear and did not hear it. (Luke 11:20, 10:23-24)

(Sheehan 2000:65-66)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Matthew 24:34: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

This doesn’t make any sense when the following verses in Matthew are considered

Quote:

35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

If the generation of Jesus’ lifetime was the final generation, wouldn’t he of been solely concerned with spreading the message of The End? If Jesus was apocalyptic it’s most believable Jesus would of stayed with John The Baptist baptising people to save them for eternity. Also since Jesus confesses he doesn’t know when things will end to speak of his generation being the last doesn’t follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Mark 3: 13, 14: Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14: He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach.

It’s interesting that Jesus focused on disciples, people who actively chose to follow him. He did try to reach other people as well, but he commonly uses indirect communication. The goal of indirect communication is that individuals that are willing pursue and unravel information. This supports the idea that the Kingdom of God is a personal, even immediate connection.
Also, to examine the beginning of chapter 24 in Matthew, the Mount of Olives

Quote:

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus speaks about the apocalypse privately! Crash and burn apocalyticism concerns everyone, the Book of Daniel even concerned gentiles. It’s inconsistent for Jesus to unveil an apocalyptic Kingdom of God to a select few.

A main point here is the seeming asceticism Jesus proposes. People giving up belongings to reach the Kingdom of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

If the end of the world is near, this makes perfect sense:
Mark 6: 8-9: These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9: Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

Matt.6: 19-20, 25: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal….
25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Given that he thought the world was ending and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes perfect sense that his message revolves around the end times. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power, or family. He urged his followers to forsake all of these to focus entirely on purifying their own character, doing good works, and spreading the gospel. You are not pursuing a pleasant and successful life on Earth. You are applying for an everlasting afterlife in Heaven before the Earth is soon destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

It must be remembered that the context of Jesus’ ministry was harsh, otherworldly, and very urgent; the Kingdom of God was very close at hand and would in fact come into being within the lifetime of some of those around him, yet no one knew when.

The idea of giving of possessions is switching the focus from actions and behaviour to what an individual wills and believes “27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matthew 5:27-28. This example of solely focusing on the intention is a radical idea, which I’m at ends with morally. But it’s directly consistent with Jesus’ message being personal, existential. This is how the apocalyptic allegories come into play, for some people the “Kingdom of God is near” (Mark 1:15) yet for others it has already been realised.

Quote:

If we ask about the timing of this eschatological event, that is, when God's kingdom was supposed to arrive, we are faced with an apparent contradiction. According to what Jesus preached, the reign-of-God-with-man at one and the same time had already arrived in the present and yet was still to come in the future. This paradox of the simultaneous presence and futurity of God's kingdom brings us to the core of Jesus' message: the eschatological present-future.[39] On the one hand, it seems to be the case that Jesus, in conformity with the eschatological spirit of the times, did indeed preach that the kingdom lay in the immediate future but had not yet arrived. For example, he taught his disciples to pray: "Abba, may thy kingdom come!" But on the other hand, even if Jesus did expect an imminent and dramatic arrival of God among his people, he made no attempt to calculate the time of that coming, either in chronological or in apocalyptic terms. He refused to engage in predictions about its arrival, he never preached the dualism of "the age of darkness" followed by "the age to come," and he may not even have believed in a catastrophic end of the world. It seems that for Jesus the coming of God's kingdom was not measurable in such linear terms as "before" and "after," whether those be chronological or apocalyptic. Strictly speaking, it appears that for Jesus the future did not lie up ahead.

(Sheehan 2000:68)
This is why Jesus frequently eats and drinks good food and wine. Also why he doesn’t really abide by asceticism. Because he has realised the Kingdom of God. His attitude is right. On this point, it should be established that God is a completely subjective condition. This is how some people have realised the Kingdom of God while others haven’t, because it’s all done existentially and subjectively. The kingdom of God is a this-worldly meaningful and ethical life.

Quote:

All Jesus did was bring to light in a fresh way what had always been the case but what had been forgotten or obscured by religion. His role was simply to end religion--that temporary governess who had turned into a tyrant--and restore the sense of the immediacy of God. Jesus, the first disciple of the kingdom of God, was "like a householder who brings out from his storeroom things both new and old" (Matthew 13:52)

(Sheehan 2000:68)

A Stable Flux · 01-30-2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

Absolutely. I'd argue there's is little doubt that the Jesus we find in the gospels (and Paul) was preaching an apocalyptic message. The clear indication of this to me (though not to our JMer friends

) is that the historical Yeshua was an apocalyptic preacher.

Bart Ehrman summarises the evidence for the beginner in Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Dale C. Allison presents a far more detailed analysis of Jesus' apocalypticism in his Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (or via: amazon.co.uk). Allison debates Crossan and the Jesus Seminar guys on the issue in The Apocalytic Jesus: A Debate (or via: amazon.co.uk)and, IMO, wipes the floor with their non-apocalyptic "sage" Jesus.

It would be good to hear an established opinion upon whether Jesus was apocalyptic. Could you expound some of the decisive factors as to why Jesus was surely apocalyptic? Thanks.

Antipope Innocent II · 01-30-2008, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Stable Flux

It would be good to hear an established opinion upon whether Jesus was apocalyptic. Could you expound some of the decisive factors as to why Jesus was surely apocalyptic? Thanks.

I read Allison's book a few months ago and found (i) it summed up everything I'd gathered in the last 20 years of reading and analysis, (ii) it crystallised a number of things I hadn't noticed and (iii) it comprehensively countered all the objections to Jesus/Yeshua as a Jewish apocalypcist that I had ever encountered and a few besides.

I recommend his book very highly, because I've yet to see an alternative to his conception of Yeshua that stands the test of hard scrutiny the way it does.

And if Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet kicks the non-apocalyptic, watered down, liberal hippy Jesus of Crossan in the butt, The Apocalyptic Jesus: A Debate finishes the job.

Read both and the get back to me with any disagreements. I feel Allison - with Vermes, Fredriksen and Maccoby - has come the closest of anyone in the last several decades at putting their finger on the real Yeshua of history.

And the thing that makes that apocalyptic Yeshua so likely to be authentic is the fact that he is so alien to what people now would want or expect him to be.

As Schweitzer observed, the "historical Jesus" people arrive at tends to be a reflection of the Jesus they want to find. When we find a weird, non-divine, non-orthodox, non-institutional Jesus that actually has little or no applicability to today or universality generally, chances are were pretty damn close to the real thing.

Jesuses that are too close to what we'd like (Jesus the Son of God, Jesus the Mellow Hippy, Jesus the Revolutionary, Jesus the Myth) all stink to high heaven of wishful thinking. A Jesus that sticks out as something we wouldn't dream up but which fits with the time and evidence, makes far more sense historically. And Jesus the Millenarian Prophet fits that bill perfectly in the way an orthodox "Son of God" or a fringe, Doherty-style heavenly abstraction (oddly unnoticed by anyone before the holy prophet Doherty) just doesn't.

Jesus of the Coming Kingship of Yahweh is a real First Century Jesus. And the fact he fits with the evidence so well but doesn't fit with any of our preoccupations means that he feels so "right" from a purely historical perspective.

But read Alllison's highly detailed and closely argued analysis and tell me if you feel he's in error somewhere. His case is carefully and meticulously detailed and I've yet to see it punctured by Crossan et al. Or by conservatives.

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01-29-2008, 06:23 PM	#11
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	In no particular order: Mark 1:15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" Matthew 24:34: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matthew 10:23: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes." Even in selling his apocryphal "Good News", Jesus had to find people to help him. Perhaps they heard some of Jesus’ message, perhaps not; it is not told to us in the Bible. If times are harsh and you're an occupied people and gullible enough to contemplate it, consider these: Mark 3: 13, 14: Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14: He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach. Mark 8:34: Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke 14:33: So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 18:22: When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." If the end of the world is near, this makes perfect sense: Mark 6: 8-9: These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9: Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. Matt.6: 19-20, 25: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal…. 25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Given that he thought the world was ending and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes perfect sense that his message revolves around the end times. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power, or family. He urged his followers to forsake all of these to focus entirely on purifying their own character, doing good works, and spreading the gospel. You are not pursuing a pleasant and successful life on Earth. You are applying for an everlasting afterlife in Heaven before the Earth is soon destroyed. It must be remembered that the context of Jesus’ ministry was harsh, otherworldly, and very urgent; the Kingdom of God was very close at hand and would in fact come into being within the lifetime of some of those around him, yet no one knew when.

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