Ben C Smith

This is the Greek of the entire chapter that Andrew gave. I have underlined the answers to your questions. Theophilus, To Autolycus 1.12:

âˆ?εÏ?ι δε του σε καταγελαν μου, καλουντα με ΧÏ?ιστιανον, ουκ οιδας ο λεγεις. Ï€Ï?ωτον μεν οτι το χÏ?ιστον ηδυ και ευχÏ?ηστον και ακαταγελαστον εστιν. ποιον γαÏ? πλοιον δυναται ευχÏ?ηστον ειναι και σωζεσθαι, εαν μη Ï€Ï?ωτον χÏ?ισθη; η ποιος πυÏ?γος η οικια ευμοÏ?φος και ευχÏ?ηστος εστιν, επαν ου κεχÏ?ισται; τις δε ανθÏ?ωπος εισελθων εις τονδε τον βιον η αθλων ου χÏ?ιεται ελαιω; ποιον δε εÏ?γον η κοσμιον δυναται ευμοÏ?φιαν εχειν, εαν μη χÏ?ισθη και στιλβωθη; ειτα αηÏ? μεν και πασα η Ï…Ï€ ουÏ?ανον Ï„Ï?οπω τινι χÏ?ιεται φωτι και πνευματι. συ δε ου βουλει χÏ?ισθηναι ελαιον θεου; τοιγαÏ?ουν ημεις τουτου εινεκεν καλουμεθα ΧÏ?ιστιανοι οτι χÏ?ιομεθα ελαιον θεου.

I have a page of links available to other texts from that Skeptik site that Stephen pointed out a couple of months ago on his weblog.

Ben.

No Robots

Thanks, dude! I had found that page and it did look mighty funky!

Well, in my case, it leads to what is I hope a better informed conviction.

jakejonesiv

Ben,

Thanks, you guys are the best! :notworthy:

The last piece of the puzzle: what is the earliest manuscript that contains this text and what is the date?

Jake

TedM

That's what it looks like to me too (though I don't assumine it is a vision or revelation. If I did, I would agree also.) See my prior post.

jakejonesiv

Just what is Paul's Christ story?

I mean beyond the Jesus Christ crucified and risen myth?

Jake

Ben C Smith

Correct. I do not think it refers to the act of crucifixion itself; rather, it refers to whenever Jesus was handed over or delivered up by God to be crucified. Paul gives us no information as to when the actual crucifixion took place relative to this night on which he was handed over.

I take it as a divine passive. God delivered Jesus up to be crucified.

Betrayal is an acceptable translation of the word; however, since this is not an atypical way for Paul to express the notion that God willed Jesus to die, I think it far better to take it as a divine passive. Compare Romans 4.25:

...who was delivered up because of our transgressions and was raised for our iniquities.

Jesus was obviously raised by God, so it looks like Jesus was also delivered up by God. Or look at 2 Corinthians 4.11:

For we who are alive are being constantly delivered over to death....

Surely betrayal is out of place here; who is delivering us over to death? I think God. A divine passive.

In Galatians 2.20 Jesus delivers himself up.

That is a good point, though no doubt Amaleq will want to generalize the act of remembering as much as possible. The battle cry remember the Alamo does not imply that anybody living was actually at the Alamo.

The objection here will be that the word for broken or which is broken is lacking in some very early manuscripts.

Change others to God and I agree with you.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Now that I do not know; I would guess the earliest complete copy of Theophilus is medieval, but I do not know whether earlier fragments are available. I do know that Eusebius and other fathers refer back to Theophilus of Antioch and have some quotes of him.

Ben.

TedM

But why would God deliver Jesus up at night to be crucified the next day? What happened during the minimum of 12 hours or so between his being "delivered up" and actually being crucified, to justify the phrase "delivered up"? I didn't check the Greek but isn't there only just one place other than 1 cor 11, in which the same or similar Greek word is used (is it Rom 8:32)? If so, is this one other verse really strong enough to conclude much about the meaning in this passage?

I might also point out that the people Jesus appears to be talking to are his followers at that time, since he tells them to remember him, and that his body and blood is for them.

ted

No Robots

Robert M. Grant wrote a paper that covers the question of manuscripts. This would presumably also be included in his translation of Theophilus.

Ben C Smith

Presumably because he was arrested that night. That is what delivering up a person means; it means that the person is arrested (see Matthew 10.17, for example).

Paul uses the verb itself some 15 times in the undisputed epistles. Of those 15 times it is passive 4 times. Two of those passive instances, the two that I gave you, appear to be a divine passive. Romans 6.17 might be too, but I would not necessarily press that, and it has nothing to do with the death of Jesus at any rate. In Romans 8.32 the verb is active, but God is the subject, delivering Jesus up to die.

The point is that God delivering Jesus over to his execution or Christians over to death is a familiar concept for Paul. That should be our first stop.

That is a very good point.

Ben.