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I like these words: " But none of us is either good or bad as persons. Our ideas, our values, our actions can be good or bad. Not people. people just are. We are not our ideas, our emotions, or our actions. If we were, we could not change them. We would be locked into them, and therefore not responsible for them."

These are beautiful, hopeful ideas. I would expect these ideas of a religion that is about the worth of individuals, about how love makes better sense of people than our flawed judgement. BUT, how are the ideas in Christianity which define whole people as bad and deserving of eternal punishment because of their thoughts and feelings anything like the above quote?

Historically, terrible wrongs have been justified by the good book, which has rendered murderers conscienceless, not responsible. It is an irony that resounds in some people with the weight of those who have lost their lives. People are still losing their lives because someone's book says it's right.
Opposing that, even in mere words, is not necessarily nothing. It is a step out of indifference.

I just doubt that atheists are the first to get out the heavy guns of damning whole people. There is a need to resist being damned. It's healthy, or can be. In in-person life, if someone doesn't see that they're hurting me, it's up to me to walk away. On a discussion board, it is too bad if no progress is made toward relating in a way you wouldn't have to walk away from in person. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if all opponents in life could pause a minute and receive from the other their best cooked recipe.

Not that I think the issues should be buried in a hot fudge sundae.

truthie

Oh well, I am turning back to my original statement; there is no need to increase the number of atheists or even outbreed theists. That won’t help theists to understand atheism in a better way at all except promotion.
And if atheism is going to be promoted, it should be accompanied by freethought and skepticism.
I just fear atheist proselytism and that atheists may start doing the same stupid things that religious people do.
Perhaps, atheists could use some methods that the gay community has. But, as some people have said, most atheists do not feel the need of expressing or promoting their philosophic position.

When you look at a broader picture, it is not exactly the same.
I agree, religion and leprechauns are silly, but to most people in the planet, leprechauns are extremely sillier than religions. Religion/theism has a stronger base.
Did you know that there are people who still believe in leprechauns?

T.

truthie

Why should it gain popularity?
It may turn into a fad, which is what usually occurs when religions/non-religions become trendy.
I like the philosophy too much to see it being converted into a fashion.
Also, I fear that secular humanists may start creating secular humanist proselytism, thus doing the same stupid things that religious people do.

T.

Starboy

Truthie, may I suggest that you read some books by Joseph Campbell. You might want to start off with a book called 'The Power of Myth'. I would certainly contend that supernatural religion must be replace but I also contend that atheism is no replacement. After you read that book and ponder it for a while come back. I think we can have some interesting discussions.

Starboy

truthie

Funny, Starboy, the series of the Power of Myth were shown on PBS, which is a local Arizonan channel.
I never grasped if Joseph Campbell was a pantheist, deist or atheist, what do you think? Also, he seemed to be a lot into Native American/neopagan spirituality or am I mistaken?

Ok, I cannot stand the supernatural, but tell me, what should the replacement be? Not atheism, I know that.
Secular Humanism?
It does not seem as if the supernatural will cease to exist any time soon, apparently, when science fails to explain, myth reigns.
And, if there should be some kind of replacement, then people’s mentality should be the first case to work with.
Now, since I don’t remember too much about the series, maybe I will buy the book in a future, I don’t know.
I am a teen and unfortunately, I leave in a household where the supernatural reigns, if my parents ever saw that book I know I would be in lots of trouble.
However, I was able to buy a small book on atheism, (written by Julian Baggini) that one I can hide.

T.

sharon45

I disagree with pat robertson misrepresenting christianity, that is just an easy cop-out excuss used far too many times. He is a religious leader with many of his own views yes, but they are not that far away from the NT's teachings.

sharon45

That is your personal business of what you believe, no one can know that ahead of time, but those that try to respect and follow the core teaching of most of christianity, the NT, do indeed practice most of that behavior. As I said many times already before, I don't attack christians or christianity, I defend myself and others from their and its own attacks.

Starboy

At the end of the book Campbell admits to being an atheist. His reasons are interesting. He basically said that most people don't actually believe in the supernatural anymore. Even those that claim to. We just don't understand our surroundings in that way in this day and age. Our terms for understanding existence are no longer ghosts, devils, demons, gods, sin, hell, souls, heaven, angels, and so on. They are now genes, electrons, photons, fields, molecules and so on. We live in a different age.

From what I've seen of Secular Humanism it is not much more than atheism. Campbell makes a good point in his book, and that is that throughout the ages one of the major purposes of religion was to provide guidance on how to live life well. That gods and heroes were also archetypes for people to emulate. We don't come with an owner’s manual yet everyone is faced with the same problem, how should I live this life that I find myself in? Neither atheism nor Secular Humanism has much to offer in this area. This is why I don't think they will be taking the place of religion and why I don't think that they are even in the fight.

This is where you are wrong. Science has already won hands down. When you are ill you don't go to a priest you go to a doctor. When you car is broken you don't make an offering to god to get it fixed. When you want to prepare for the weather you don't look in the bible. Those that call themselves supernaturalist live in the twentieth century for most of the week and then for a few hours on Sunday live in the Bronze Age. It is just that old traditions die hard, but for all intents and purposes they are dead. Supernatural religion is so far out of sync with how most people actually live their lives it has become a ritual joke.

It is also available in paperback. You could probably get it cheap on Amazon used books and have it sent to a friend’s house via USPS.

The Power of Myth

Starboy

SkyDancer_0202

otoh, several years ago a man in Florida had his personalized license plate taken away by the DMV because it was "obscene" It said 'atheist'

Llyricist

ummm do you suppose the fact that you are a cop might have something to do with that?

Again, the job would seem to require the absence of belief in a particularly active god to start with.

I can see a fundy cop shrugging his shoulders at a suspicious death saying, "Well, it was God's will.."