aa5874

Now, who were Matthew, Mark, Luke or Peter?

I cannot find any credible non-apologetic information about these people.

In the NT, some-one called Peter walked on water, saw Jesus transfigure, (his face was shining like the sun) and an angel helped him to escape from jail.

In the NT, in a book called gMatthew, it is written that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost.

In a book called Mark, it is written that Jesus was RISEN after being dead for three days.

The author of a book called Luke wrote that Jesus was carried up to heaven after he resurrected.

All these events can hardly be true. These writers cannot be credible. And they may not have been Jews.

Again, you cannot use the NT to CORROBORATE the NT, you MUST use external non-apologetic sources.

And anyone can take verses out of context and claim it is prophecy. And none of the verses you quoted from Psalms have the words, Jesus, the Son of the God of the Jews, or that Jesus will resurrect, or that Jesus' face will shine like the sun during the days of Tiberius.

The words Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost cannot be found anywhere in the entire OT.

sschlichter

but regardless, tell me what you know of the Messiah they expected at AD 70. How were they planning on identifying the Messiah?

aa5874

See "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4 by Josephus, "Histories" by Tacitus and "Life of Vespasian" by Suetonius.

angelo

You must be able to see a resemblance if you remove your blinkers of authenticity you seem to be placing on the gospel accounts.
Of course the Isis and infant Horus depiction is more primitive, it's after all centuries older.
At least you admit that the depiction may have been influenced by it.

I hold that the whole myth of the Christ is no more or less than the evolution of ancient myths of Pagan saviours and man-gods, some, millennia before Christianity.

angelo

I wish to add that Mohammad also rose into heaven on a flying horse. And almost all myths of messiahs also, all rose into heaven. Which if you notice, all depict a three tiered view of the world. Hades under the earth, the earth itself, and heaven above the canopy of the sky.
In other words. The earth is all there is at the center of creation.
These primitive people wrote what to them was what they understood of the world around them.
That some 21st century men can read and place any credence at all to these very primitive almost childlike fairy tales explains why this world is so much in danger of becoming extinct because of our stupidity.

Doug Shaver

Yes, and I'd assume oral tradition absent evidence to the contrary.

Yes, but I'm not aware that either of them cited any sources. That was my point. If they did not cite a source, they cannot be used as evidence for the source's existence in their time.

Of course that doesn't prove the source's contemporary nonexistence. But a writer who doesn't cite a source can't be proof that the source did exist.

aa5874

These 21st century men want to go HEAVEN, they want to get ETERNAL LIFE.

They think that when the world goes extinct they are going to be with their God.

sschlichter

I am curious why you would assume oral tradition versus leaving it as unknown. Is there some reason for this assumption?

Is Justin Martyr citing a source when he cites the memoirs of the apostles?

~Steve

avi

I have not found, in reading this particular volume, V, of Josephus' magnum opus, any reference to expectation of arrival of a messiah.
Again, this pair of sentences does not convey a strong sense of belief in the imminent arrival of a saviour.

aa5874

Now, do you see any other passage where Josephus made a strong claim that the son of the God of the Jews, born of the Holy Ghost would come to earth during the time of Tiberius, would raise the dead, transfigure, resurrect and ascend through the clouds based on Isaiah 7.14 or any other passage in the OT?

Josephus, the Jew, claimed the Jews expected a military-political Messiah, probably similar to Simon bar Kokchba who was called the Messiah around 135 CE.