eccles

I have not had time to read all replies.
May I state that I am a bedraggled refugee from them"Holy" Roman Catholic Church now an Atheist because of my study is science and the origin of Judeo/Christianity.

I reject the Bible as anything like an accurate account of events of those times. It is agreed that no authored original ms. exist and the scriptures were miscopied, mistranslated and redacted.
I subscribe to the proposition that Emperor Constantine I began the foundation of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church as the official religion of the Roman Empire for political purposes. The existence of Jesus is very doubtful.

aa5874

My argument that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century CANNOT FAIL--it is possibly the strongest argument ever presented on this forum.

My argument is supported by actual recovered DATED evidence from the 2nd century.

In my last post, I showed that if a New Canon was assembled using Only gMark and the Pauline writings that gMark would have Priority over ALL the Pauline writings.

It is obvious that the supposed Teachings of the Markan Jesus would be expected BEFORE the Teachings of the Pauline Resurrected Jesus especially when the Pauline writer claimed he persecuted those who Believed the Jesus story BEFORE him.

Let us look yet at another angle--another perspective.

Again Rip gMark and ALL the Pauline letters from a Canon.

We will now have a NT Canon without gMark and the Pauline letters.

Now which writings can we add LAST to a Canon without gMark and the Pauline writings??

Which writings contain details NOT found in the Canon without gMark and the Pauline writings

Once gMatthew is already in the Canon--gMark is Obsolete.

Virtually 100% of gMark is in gMatthew and with far more details.

Effectively, we don't need gMark.

Only the Pauline writings contain details that can be ADDED LAST to a Canon without gMark and the Pauline letters.

Essentially, when the Pauline writings are ACTUALLY placed LAST in the Canon they make a Perfect chronological Fit.

When we examine the writings of Justin Martyr it is clearly seen that the EARLY Jesus cult did NOT use the Pauline writings at all.

The early Jesus cult used the Memoirs of the Apostles.

Up to the 2nd mid 2nd century, Justin's Christology was fundamentally based on Hebrew Scripture/Septuagint and the Memoirs of the Apostles.

First Apology LXVII The Jesus stories PREDATE the Pauline writings.

The Pauline writer could ONLY have been a Persecutor from the mid 2nd century or later.

Apologetic sources place the Pauline writer AFTER Revelation and claimed he was ALIVE AFTER gLuke was already composed.

See the Muratorian Canon, Origen's "Commentary on Matthew 1 and Eusebius "Church History" 6.25.

Galatians 2 The Gospel of Peter was claimed to be gMark. See Church History 2.15.1.

In Galatians, the Gospel of Peter, the gMark story, was preached BEFORE the Revealed Gospel of Paul.

Chili

Paul was persecutor of religion in his own mind in the same way Joseph was who also had this fancy 'hand-hewn cave' in his own back-yard. To say: If you are an ark-builder, as Paul was, you better 'tax it' with all that you have and load your 'life-house-boat' with all that you are, and be sure to have a cave ready when you get to the other side of your life.

And of course Paul knew Mark as the snake-oil salesman to humans below . . . and still is the comedy that entertains the saints in heaven today.

Chili

Catholicism is not a rational religion that is based on history for its validation.

It represents 'heaven on earth' when Peter sold-out and threw in those 'silver pieces' before he moved to Rome to become its encultured Elysium that they call the Church Triumphant today.

Triumphant is philosophical, or pagan, to make it available to all 'water walkers' on its own celestial [Holy] Sea that once was known as the Elysian Field. Indeed that makes heaven 'religion specific' and so it is that All Roads lead to Rome, where on the flip-side urinals are placed for those 'curious eyes' who try to destroy it and keep pointing at history to call their Jesus a lie.

Here is who their Jesus really is, from which follows that their ambition is only to teach us when it is time to spin a cocoon and arouse the sleeper in us:

How can there be a historical Jesus if Jesus is the transforming agent between human and man, or between earth and heaven on earth (same thing).

Let me define historical to be with registered birth certificate in place and time, simple yes, but only to say that Jesus did not have this and so was not historical like us and everybody else including you and me.

Jesus is real, and is alive, and is alive in us, and is alive in each and every one of us to be the transforming agent during metamorphosis. That's all he is, and so really is not, while yet really he is, and is needed ony when we need him, and until then he should be a sleeper in us, to never be aroused lest he becomes alive in us and leads us further and further astray with no end in sight because he has access to a never ending source that also holds the promise of heaven to us . . . and so a premature 'awakening' of Jesus in us becomes hell on earth by degree depending on the strenght of the new wine we drank that was poured in the cup of God's anger, with anger being only the degree of reality that we see, which in turn is the prompt to "spread the good news" by those who so are fucked in the head, (pardon the colloquial but in effect it is true, and by degree, please don't forget, in the height of which mental institutions are loaded with them).

It so then is equal to spritual fornication wherein the innocent believer is made lukewarm, and wants to share this burning sensation with others (so that eventually 'might will make right' with better days ahead after they die).

The word Jesus should never be spoken lest he becomes an idol to us and wait for his arrival that so removes the 'thief' he is meant to be, 'in the nigth' when even 'time' as we know it is not.

The point here is that there is no -ism about myth. Myth is real, and so is Jesus and he is more real than we as human will ever be as. Jesus is the one who must be the transforming agent in our very own mind so he can be the second Adam in us to crucify the first Adam on us as the masked pretender that we are.

Sheshbazzar

We will be sure to remember that fact aa.

aa5874

You seem to have forgotten no dated manuscripts from the 1st century about Jesus, the disciples and Paul have been recovered for over 1800 years.

Think hard about it carefully.

If there were actual dated evidence in antiquity from the 1st century about Paul then the very Church and its writers would have been known to be LIARS when they claimed Paul was ALIVE AFTER gLuke was composed and simultaneously claimed Paul Died under Nero.

gLuke was composed AFTER the reign of Nero--After c 68 CE.

The Church and its writers claimed Paul died under Nero c 64-66 CE.

If there were actual dated evidence for Jesus then the Church and its writers would have been Identified as Liars when they claimed that Jesus was FATHERED by a Holy Ghost and was God the Creator.

The Church itself had NO actual dated evidence and their audience had None.

In "Against Celsus", the writer called Celsus did NOT present any actual dated documented evidence from the 1st century to argue that Jesus was NOT Fathered by a Ghost.

In "On the Flesh of Christ" the Church writer did NOT present any actual dated evidence from the 1st century and ARGUED that Jesus was FATHERED by a Holy Ghost.

No manuscript from the 1st century of Jesus, his disciples and Paul will be recovered.

The Church and its writers had NONE.

If the Church and its writers had actual 1st century dated evidence they would have Exposed and Publish it all over the Roman Empire 1800 ago.

The Only dated source of Jesus were the forgeries in Josephus Antiquities.

Don't forget--My argument cannot fail.

Sheshbazzar

Have thought about it long, hard, and very carefully. What I'm expecting to eventually turn up will not have originated with 'the church', but will be of indisputably much earlier origin.

There is still far-far and away too much material that is missing that the internal textual evidences indicate must have most certainly had to have existed, and given the nature of that priceless material, would have been the most carefully preserved of all.
I have very strong reasons to be convinced, and to be very confident that there will be additional archaeological findings and ancient writings brought to the light as technology progresses.
That is why I'm not buying into anything presently being peddled, but will continue patiently waiting rather than being persuaded to jump on anyone's bandwagon.
I have no desire to be applauded as the one who claims to 'know it all today', while holding opinions that will become discredited by a single finding tomorrow.

I KNOW what is lacking, and this present material will never be complete nor its deep secrets unlocked until this key material is uncovered and again brought to light.

This is where we differ and oppose aa, While you are convinced that you have already found 'all of the right answers', and solutions, and are trying to persuade others,
I am even more thoroughly convinced that you have not.

I am confident beyond words to express, of how certain I am that this waiting will prove to be well advised and worthwhile.

aa5874

Well, my expectations have been corroborated. The non-existence of Jesus, the disciples and Paul in the 1st century would have produced the very same results as we have today.

No manuscripts od Jesus, the disciples and Paul would be found. That is PRECISELY what has happened. That is exactly what I expected.

The Church itself did NOT have any actual documented dated manuscript of Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

What internal evidence are you talking about??? The internal evidence from Eusebius, Irenaeus, Ignatius or Saulus/Paulus??

You have already jumped on the band wagon of "Faith"--that's the same bandwagon of HJers, Fundamentalists and Christians. They express their Faith there is more out there for their Jesus although they don't really know what it is.

Your position is really flawed. What you imagine may happen tommorow--may never happen or the reverse may happen. I no longer accept imagination as evidence.

Please, again I never claimed "to know it all". Why do you persist in such nonsense??

My argument is merely extremely strong and based on Existing dated manuscripts. That's all--That's basic.

I don't have to know everything---just the actual recovered DATED Manuscripts and some compatible sources.

As it stands right now, my position is NOT discredited and is based on MULTIPLE findings today--right now.

What??? You know what is missing??? How did you acquire the knowledge of "deep secret material"??

Again, why do you persist in your nonsense. I have already stated that I AM NOT IN THE CONVINCING BUSINESS.

I simply PRESENT and EXAMINE dated evidence, and written statements from antiquity to develop arguments.

My argument is rather simple and easy to understand--the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century.

Devolping arguments based on evidence is standard throughout the world.

Any Argument developed from imagination is rather useless

This is the same refrain of the Christian---Their wait for Jesus Christ will be worthwhile.

Do you want to wait another 1800 years??? Jesus is coming soon?? :banghead:

Sheshbazzar

Perhaps you have forgotten. I also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.

But they DID have ancient documents which they incorporated, edited, and reworked, and which they DID NOT want ever to be found, documented, identified, or dated.

No. not at all. And anyone at all familiar with my posts will be aware that I seldom refer to such sources as evidence for anything.
(other than 'Paul's' recording of the number fathoms that were measured, and jest about how you are unable to even fathom why this information was recorded
More of that kaveed me'ode material that flies right over your 'simple' head.)

You would need to study the entire Bible intensively, and by active participation with like minded associates, experience knowing what you were looking for in order to understand what it is that you are missing. Simply reading books will never by itself suffice to place you in the circumstances where you would attain comprehension.
You will never be able to understand what -ליל שמרים- is nor how to ever find it, without the actual engaging in the doing of it.
And this is only one thing that can lead to the understanding millions of others. But it takes first a measure of hearing, and of open mindedness and a willingness to learn, and to change, then time, effort, and perseverance.
It is to be expected, that having no understanding of these matters, like usual you will again choose to ignore them.

You read these texts altogether too superficially and that in the weak and very poorly translated English language 'Versions' produced by Christian translators.
You lack any appreciation or comprehension of the richness, the shades of meaning, the word plays, and that interconnectedness which is only contained within the idioms, allusions, and metaphors of the original language.
Yes I am very confident based upon that body of esoteric knowledge that my associations, and investigations of the Hebrew texts have revealed to me. Matters of which you, never having investigated, remain unaware and virtually totally ignorant of.

Thankfully, my education over the last six decades has never been restricted to consisting of only whatever myopic aa5874 would be willing to accept.

Why are you then here, attempting to present yourself as being some 'final authority' whose 'findings' should dictate what everyone else should think or conclude regarding these matters?
And that is the flaw that is in your argument and position. It is myopic, and depends upon maintaining myopia.

Only because you are unaware and unlearned in the already available material that make your findings of less significance than what you think.

By being open minded, by intensively studying the ancient texts in their original language, by being in the company of the 'right people', doing the 'right things', 'in the right place', at 'the right time'.
Not something that any individual would ever experience or be able to comprehend by simply reading from books. The hidden knowledge is only attainable in the hearing and doing. But you do not know, and have experienced none of this.


This protracted thread with your hundreds of repetitious assertions presents a rather strong argument to the contrary.
There is no pressing need for anyone to without reservation endorse all of the positions, arguments, and views of aa5874 today, except for what paltry ego boost he might bask in for a short season.

Certainly I will not be waiting another 1800 years for those few simple pieces of archaeological material that I am overwhelmingly confident exist and will in due time be recovered. And as I have made clear in my thousands of posts in this Forum, I do not believe in Jesus, nor in Jesus coming.

To me it makes no difference in this matter even if I die on this very day, or tomorrow, the evidence that I am patiently waiting for will most certainly come, and will become known to all mankind.
Then anyone who may have interest will know how just right I was not to allow myself, and have to discouraged others from allowing themselves to be steamrollered.

aa5874

Why are you NOT Myopic??


What ancient documents are you talking about?? When were your "ancient documents" about Jesus, the disciples and Paul composed?? You are an INVENTOR of your own "ancient documents".

You have Forgotten that youalso do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.

Again, I no longer accept speculation and imagination as evidence. Your claims are similar to HJers, Fundamentalists and Christians who heavily rely on their Belief Withour corroboration or actual evidence.

We have evidence from the 2nd century and later for Jesus, the disciples and Paul and that is EXACTLY what is EXPECTED when the Jesus and the Apostles had NO existence.

Again, you have Forgotten that you also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.

May I remind that it is NOT expected that there would be 1st century material of Jesus or the Apostles if they never ever existed at that time.

Please, tell us about your Revelations. Tell us of your Revelations from Hebrew Scripture. Do you have any Revelations from Isaiah 7.14.

Tell us of your body of esoteric knowledge and Revelations so that we can determine if they are Ignorance.

Surely, you have Forgotten that you yourself also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.
After six decades of education you yourself also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.

You have forgotten that in this very thread I argue that Jesus and the Apostles had NO real existence in the 1st century based on the recovered dated manuscripts and compatible sources

You are the one who repeats that nonsense over and over to deliberately ridicule me. It is as if you are being paid or sole objective is to mis-repreasent my position.

You claim to have some body of estoric knowledge and Revelations from Hebrew Scripture and at times display your knowledge of some kind of foreign language and suggests other are ignorant.

You are the one who BOASTS of your esotoric knowledge and Revelations.

But, I have isolated your problem, You keep on forgetting that you yourself also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.

And what about your CLAIM that YOU also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed.???

Why are you NOT Myopic??

I do NOT accept that Jesus or the Apostles ever existed in the 1st century and before c 70 CE.


Why do you imply that you are aware of other material and that imply that I am unlearned when you also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed??

I have learned from OTHER AVAILABLE MATERIAL that Jesus and the Apostles had no real existence in the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

It must be obvious that I do not need your body of esoteric knowledge and Revelations from Hebrew Scripture. The actual dated evidence that I have supports my argument.

Revelation and estoric knowledge is NOT evidence at all.

Please, get actual dated EVIDENCE for your arguments

Why do you imply that you have some estoric body of knowledge, have revelations from ancient texts, and is surrounded by the Right people, the Right things, the Right place at the Right time??

Don't you see that you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of??

You are implying that you KNOW it all.

But, with all your knowledge, revelation and being in the right company
you still forgotten that you yourself also do not accept that 'Jesus' or the 'apostles' ever existed??

You simply don't remember that My argument is that Jesus and the Apostles had NO real existence in the 1st century and before c 70 CE.