Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 09-05-2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
So, do you retract your claim that John the Baptist was the author of Revelation?

Your idea that I think "Josephus was a fraud" is another bit of nonsense that stems solely from your own mind. You obviously have never read more than bits and pieces of Josephus (or, perhaps, just a single paragraph). I have read the man the whole way through. There are things that are probable in the works of Josephus, and things that are less probable.

In this case, Mark did not know the Antiquities of Josephus, Josephus did not know the Gospel of Mark, and both agree on the fact that John was imprisoned by Herod Agrippa in Palestine. This renders the idea that John the Baptist was John of Patmos an impossibility, a contradiction to what we know.

best,
Peter Kirby

So why do you accept Josephus in some regards, but not in regard to anything that mentions Jesus? Biased much?

MortalWombat · 09-05-2003, 07:55 AM

Answer the questions, Magus. Do you retract the claim that John the Baptist, who was beheaded before Jesus' crucifixion, and therefore before there were any persecutions, or even any Christians for that matter, was the same as John of Revelation who was writing to persecuted Christian churches?

hezekiah jones · 09-05-2003, 08:45 AM

How about the Epistles of John, Magus. Were they written by that locust-devouring Baptist as well?

Magus55 · 09-05-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MortalWombat
Answer the questions, Magus. Do you retract the claim that John the Baptist, who was beheaded before Jesus' crucifixion, and therefore before there were any persecutions, or even any Christians for that matter, was the same as John of Revelation who was writing to persecuted Christian churches?

The John that wrote the Gospel of John, John 1, 2 and 3, and Revelation, was the Apostle John. The John who was beheaded was John the Baptist. I learn. Too many Johns, they get confusing. So, yes i retract that statement. John the Baptist, is different than John the Apostle.

Peter Kirby · 09-05-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
So why do you accept Josephus in some regards, but not in regard to anything that mentions Jesus?

Maybe you should ask politely about what I think, before making loaded questions like this. In fact, one of the things that I want to do in the future is to revise my "Josephus and Jesus" article.

Quote:

Biased much?

If the evidence supported the idea that Josephus did not mention Jesus, it would be biased to think that Josephus did mention Jesus. And if Josephus didn't mention Jesus, there would be nothing in Josephus to reject regarding Jesus.

Any one with an ounce of objectivity can see that the case for the authenticity of the John the Baptist passage (Ant. 18.5.2) is much better than the case for the authenticity of the Jesus Christ passage (Ant. 18.3.3).

It's good that you've now corrected your error in thinking that John the Baptist wrote Revelation. Maybe in the future you will come to see that the Apocalypse of John and the Fourth Gospel were not written by the same person. Well, probably not, as the considerations behind that conclusion are a bit more complex.

best,
Peter Kirby

CX · 09-05-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The John that wrote the Gospel of John, John 1, 2 and 3, and Revelation, was the Apostle John. The John who was beheaded was John the Baptist. I learn. Too many Johns, they get confusing. So, yes i retract that statement. John the Baptist, is different than John the Apostle.

On what do you base this conclusion? I.e. that all the writings attributed to a John are by the same author and furthermore that the author is John the Apostle?

Rick Sumner · 09-06-2003, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Maybe you should ask politely about what I think, before making loaded questions like this. In fact, one of the things that I want to do in the future is to revise my "Josephus and Jesus" article.

I'll bite: You're looking to revise it how? I saw that you had mentioned this on XTalk some time ago, but was under the impression that the old kibosh had been put on that. Have you come across something else?

Regards,
Rick

Peter Kirby · 09-06-2003, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rickmsumner
I'll bite: You're looking to revise it how? I saw that you had mentioned this on XTalk some time ago, but was under the impression that the old kibosh had been put on that. Have you come across something else?

Yes, I now have the long essay by Paget as well as some other articles with which I plan to update my web page. I'm not sure exactly how it will turn out, or even if I'll finish it before the new year, so I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. (I am trying to make "Early Jewish Writings" a priority, after college of course.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-05-2003, 07:55 AM	#12
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Answer the questions, Magus. Do you retract the claim that John the Baptist, who was beheaded before Jesus' crucifixion, and therefore before there were any persecutions, or even any Christians for that matter, was the same as John of Revelation who was writing to persecuted Christian churches?

09-05-2003, 08:45 AM	#13
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	How about the Epistles of John, Magus. Were they written by that locust-devouring Baptist as well?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.