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01-16-2008, 07:35 PM | #11 | |
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Undisputed by whom? Desperate christians who grasp at any straw imaginable to provide a lifeline for their godboy? |
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01-16-2008, 07:47 PM | #12 |
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01-16-2008, 09:27 PM | #13 | ||
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belief (and non-belief) in Jesus Christ with the explosion of the ancient historical evidence with effect from the fourth century. There are of course, the exceptions like Fomenko et al. The Pre-Nicene Layer is extremely rich in conjectures and very poor in terms of anything else, specifically evidence of any form other than Eusebian. Quote:
studies from a number of fields in the last century. Perhaps these might be termed "Non-Eusebian": 1) Radio carbon dating: C14 analysis and dating the gJudas and the gThomas, reports from the catacombs of St. Callixtus, and other sites , etc 2) Archaeological Finds: a) DSS (no relevance yet attributable to NT studies) b) Nag Hammadi Codices: mix of non-christian and christian? c) gJudas d) Syriac finds and tranlsations not available before c.1900 e) Other excavations: Dura Europa, Meggido, etc f) paprii g) epigraphy h) art, mural, grafitti, etc Best wishes, Pete Brown |
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01-16-2008, 09:37 PM | #14 | |
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the reference, but have classified the TF as completely inauthentic Lardner, Harnack, Schurer, Gordon Stein. Author of CMU, Arthur Drews, David Taylor, Wells, JM Bishop Warburton "a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too", Remsburg, Rev. Dr. Giles, Rev. S. Baring-Gould, Cannon Farrar, Theodor Keim, Rev. Dr. Hooykaas , Dr. Alexander Campbell, Dr. Chalmers, Lee Strobel (NOTE: See comments), Charles Templeton, Freke and Gandy, Earl Doherty, Marshall Gauvin ("[the TF] .. did not exist." ), Edwin Johnson, Jakob Burckhardt ?? Jay Raskin Joseph Wheless, Forgery in Christianity Solitary Man ignores these authors. To him, they have not lifted their pens. Best wishes, Pete Brown |
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01-16-2008, 09:51 PM | #15 | ||
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Like a juror, I have no consideration for the "most Christian scholars", only the "most evidence". And the "most evidence" is against the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. |
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01-16-2008, 10:17 PM | #16 | ||
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Ben. |
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01-16-2008, 10:39 PM | #17 |
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There's a reason I have certain people on ignore. If they cannot even bother themselves to correctly read a simple paragraph, oh what horrible things they must do to ancient works!
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01-16-2008, 11:44 PM | #18 | |||
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The list of scholars cited reject both the major reference in Josephus (the TF) and the minor James reference as "later interpolations". To these authors, Josephus does not mention Jesus Christ at all. Best wishes Pete Brown |
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01-16-2008, 11:54 PM | #19 |
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There's no strong evidence Jesus existed as a historical person, but I tend to think he did anyway, because of the so-called "criterion of embarassment."
In case you're not familiar with it, the argument goes like this. If the Gospels were fabricated, then (whether they're mythic or fictional) they would likely be composed by people who want you to convert or adhere to Christianity. Well, the problem with that is that the Gospels contain a number of details that cast doubt on Christian beliefs: - Obvious doubts about Jesus's paternal lineage. - People from his home town thinking he was full of it. - He seems to second-guess himself on the cross: "Father, why have you forsaken me?" - He famously prophesizes his return within the lifetimes of some listening to him; a prophecy that has presumably failed. It's a little indirect, but if you try to imagine Christian evangelists inventing those parts, it strikes you as weird. In addition to that one, I also think Jesus's character comes across as a very life-like cult leader... I also think that the existence of Christianity itself, and the purported history in the Gospels, while they may be weak evidence, are still evidence. If we had nothing to go on but the Gospels, my feeling is that the simplest theory to account for them is that there really was some guy named Jesus at the root of them. |
01-17-2008, 12:37 AM | #20 |
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An ordinary person of these times could not read, and had to believe the arguments of the christian preachers (and later, christian priests). It seems also that a preacher used only one gospel. And still now, the educated Christians are not very impressed by the contradictions which are inside the 4 authorized gospels and the rest of the canonical literature. It seems to me (who never was a christian) that the christians expect salvation, and that's all.
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