sotto voce

You're the one making the assertion for which proof has been requested.

ApostateAbe

It is a claim made plausible through analogy--by far most Quranic scholars accept the Quran as revelation from God, and they likewise belong to societies of the same religion.

Toto

I know how lawyers and police investigate factual matters and the standards of proof, and use of those techniques does not lead anyone to accept the Bible.

And your "proof"?

sotto voce

All sorts of things are plausible that are totally untrue.

They probably wouldn't be Qur'anic scholars if they did not! Circularity comes round.

sotto voce

That's not proof. It's merely re-statement of the assertion.

Toto

What kind of a game is this?

It is self evident, based on my background knowledge of how things work.

You, on the other hand, made a statement with no support of any sort, either in logic or statistical surveys, that lawyers and police officers and judges "accept the Bible as worthy testimony." And you added a smilie, as if this proved anything.

Where is your proof?

And don't cut out half of my reply.

Sarpedon

Type in "Compartamentalizing faith" into google and see what you get. You'll get dozens of links to christian websites railing against how people separate their faith from their daily lives.

The fact that you pretend to be unaware of this phenomenon is again very telling. Truly, religious people will say whatever they have to say to support their arguments, and think nothing of saying the opposite when it suits them. Indeed, this is a hallmark of the compartamentalization process.

Everyone knows that people have different standards for their faith and everything else. Imagine if you formed your opinions on medicine on information as flimsey as your religion has!

PhilosopherJay

Hi sotto voce,

Here is the text in question:

The text tells us that the wise men were from the East and they saw a star in the East that for some reason they took to be a sign that a new king had been born in Jerusalem.

The connection of earthly humanly events like births with the position of astral objects is astrology. We now know that astrology is a pseudo science. There is no connection between the discovery of stars and the future political position of human beings being born on Earth. The writer clearly believes in astrology as he labels the three believers in astrology as "wise men."

There is no indication that the three wise men were following the star when they went to Jerusalem. In fact, the text suggests that they were surprised to find the star when they were leaving for Jerusalem - "they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them."
The phrase "and, lo" indicates that they were surprised to see the star again "which they saw in the east." The repetition of "which they saw in the east" indicates they had only seen it before in the Eastern sky.

If we assume that they had been following the star, we must assume that they had gone East and circumnavigated the Earth.

Bethlehem is about 8 kilometers/5 miles from Jerusalem. It was perhaps a two hour walk. Since, they had been told that the king was supposed to be born in Bethlehem, they were not following the star to get to Bethlehem. There is no indication in the text that the wise men ever used the star for directional purposes to find Bethlehem. It was totally unnecessary, as the frequently traveled road would have been clearly marked. Rather, the text indicates that the star led them to the specific house of the new born King. Further stars move from East to West, they cannot lead people from South (Jerusalem) to North (Bethlehem).

From the phrase, "went before them," we can be reasonably certain that the writer meant that the star had come down from the sky and was traveling a few feet, or perhaps like a bird, several hundred feet off the ground. In the natural world, stars do not come down to Earth and travel in front of people. They are distant suns that would cause the destruction of the Earth if they even came near the solar system. The writer, as all people of that time, did not know this, and gave this star the property of being able to go above a single house, like an Xmas tree ornament. It represents a cartoon version of reality. Just as the laws of nature do not apply in cartoons, they do not apply for the writers of this text.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin





Another Image of the Three Wise Men from one of their movies

DoubtingDave

Hey guys, thanks for the help in research! I found some great evidence (thanks to you) and will be posting the link to the debate if I'm allowed.

sotto voce

Hi,

The text in question, conservatively and accurately translated, is here:

'Magi came from the East to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one born king of the Jews? We saw his star rising, and have come to worship him."' Mt 2:1-2

This does not seem to present any problems.